Waco's Baylor Bashes Gays - God Kills Waco Pastor Performing Baptism : Coincidence?
Note: This post is getting a lot of attention - more than I intended or neccesarily wanted. Please read the entire post and a few comments at least before you respond with comments. And please don't post a prayer announcement. If you want to pray for me, then fine. But there is no need to announce it.
For all the talk that the conservative Southern Baptists give about God's wrath on the wicked, one might wonder what message God is sending them now. Is he perhaps upset about their hate-filled agenda against homosexuals? A very interesting pair of news items from Waco, Tx, home of the largest Southern Baptist university.
Baylor Boycott 'Pro-homosexual' Starbucks Cups
Texas Pastor Electrocuted During Baptism
Mon Oct 31,12:42 AM ET
A pastor performing a baptism was electrocuted inside his church Sunday morning after adjusting a nearby microphone while standing in water, a church employee said.
The Rev. Kyle Lake, 33, was stepping into the baptistery as he reached out for the microphone, which produced an electric shock, said University Baptist Church community pastor Ben Dudley.
Water in a baptistery usually reaches above the waist, said Byron Weathersbee, interim university chaplain at Baylor University.
Lake was pronounced dead at Hillcrest Baptist Medical Center, nursing supervisor Pat Mahl said. The woman being baptized apparently had not stepped into the water and was not seriously injured.
Pastors at University Baptist Church routinely use a microphone during baptisms, said Jamie Dudley, the wife of Ben Dudley and a business administrator at the church.
"He was grabbing the microphone so everyone could hear," she said. "It's the only way you can be loud enough."
About 800 people attended the morning service, which was larger than normal because it was homecoming weekend at nearby Baylor University, Dudley said.
Lake had been at the church for nine years, the last seven as pastor. He had a wife, Jennifer, a 5-year-old daughter and two 3-year-old sons.
At a remembrance attended by about 1,000 people Sunday night at First Baptist Church, Ben Dudley told the UBC congregation that they would move forward as a church.
"I don't know how, when, why, where or what's going to happen, but we will continue as a church in the community because that is what Kyle would have wanted," he said.
God kills a pastor in front of 800 faithful including children. I suppose these believers' faith will only be strengthened. Perhaps at the prayer vigil God will send a bolt of lightning or a sudden tornadoe and kill a few hundred more devout worshipers. Will the survivors still get on their knees and worship their God? How anyone could believe in a God who electrocutes his servants in front of 800 of his flock is just beyond me. How wonderful to be faithless so that events like this can be viewed as what they are; horrible accidents that have nothing to do with an imaginary 'God'.
Tagged As:
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51 Comments:
I can't believe the callousness of your post about my friend, father of three small children, and husband Kyle Lake. The news is not fictional accounts of make believe characters but the retelling of the lives of real human beings loved by many, sons and fathers and friends.
Kyle was not what you or anyone else would call conservative either. He was one of the good guys in the modern movement in America away from fundamentalism known for it's boycotts and political insistences. Kyle didn't entrust the poor and friendless to the Democrats or Republicans. He knew the problems of this world had less to do with a lack of rules and governing and more to do with the condition of the human heart, of every human heart.
It's the heart, bent on making light of imperfection and death and sadness - as you've done here on your blog - that is to blame for any mess on this planet. It's the heart, convinced that all of life's a joke and the dirt is on everyone else if dirt even exists, that is the seed of all that's painful and unjust. Kyle spent his short life fighting pain and injustice with love, kindness, humor, and truth. He believed only God can change the heart, and only a restructured heart can bring something other than pain and injustice into the world.
Kyle was not attached to Baylor University in any way. He was an autonomous pastor of a local church, not under the direction of Baylor University and not in lock step with the denomination known as Southern Baptists.
That is who Kyle Lake was. Today his children and wife and friends mourn our loss because the world is truly a darker place without him here.
Shaun Groves
Justice Served on a cold plate, indeed.
For all the moral hoggings of these oversized moral wannabes, a pastor is zapped doing what his deity is supposed to want him to perform in the first place.
I wander how the rest of the flock will be thinking........
Holy Crap?
I can't believe the callousness of your post about my friend, father of three small children, and husband Kyle Lake. The news is not fictional accounts of make believe characters but the retelling of the lives of real human beings loved by many, sons and fathers and friends.
Speculation about why YHWH chose to kill someone is offensive when it's about someone you know, isn't it? It's too bad all the hurricane prophets inspired by Katrina never had an opportunity to learn that lesson before they started in with their hatemongering jeremiads. As a for instance.
They're teaching all of us a lesson about what christianity is--rightly or wrongly. And the lesson is that it's a load of hateful and ignorant bigotry. If that's not the truth, well, some of these other christians had better start speaking up.
Shaun,
Thanks for your corrections to my post. I wrote that piece early this morning and made a couple of assumptions concerning Mr. Lake's affiliations, based on the name of the church in which the accident happened, University Baptist Church. I understand now that he was not affiliated with Baylor and I will change my post to indicate so.
This news article caught my eye because it was the most popular news item on Yahoo news. As I write this, it is number 3. The bizarre nature of Mr. Lake's death has obviously caught the attention of a wide group of people, not just mine.
My post was not intended to be callous but ironic. As non-Christians, we constantly are bombarded by expressions from Baptists and other conservative denominations about God acting against those who are immoral, liberal, gay, atheists etc. The fact that a horrible accident, which is what this was, happened in a church full of worshipers cannot help but be read with a sense of irony. Do you complain when hate-filled Christian bloggers rant about ‘God’ killing the masses of ‘sinners’ with hurricanes, earthquakes or tidal waves?
I am sure that your community is in shock. I can only imagine how horrible the event must have been for those present. I am sure that coming to grips with this is going to be hard for everyone. Where you present if you don't mind me asking?
The horrible death of Mr. Lake and how his congregation is going to deal with it was the point of my post script. As an unbeliever it is perplexing how events that you believers would assign as 'acts of God' are accepted as 'God's will'. How can anyone who witnessed this event ever get on their knees and pray to that 'God' again?
I was once a believer, a Southern Baptist in fact. I know how it goes when someone dies in a way that is shocking and seemingly meaningless or when events transpire that make you wonder, even for a moment, if 'God' knows what the hell he is doing. "God works in mysterious ways", "You can't know the mind of God", I am sure Mr. Lake’s congregation will be hearing that a lot in the days to come. As someone whose eyes have been opened to the lies of Christianity, statements like those simply make me feel sorrow for current believers who now must somehow try to make this event fit into 'Gods Plan'.
I am sorry for your loss, but also sorry that you will, presumably, still have to get on your knees and pray to the very 'God' who brought this event to pass.
BTW, I might suggest that it is not people like me who are the problem in this world. The world could use more people who speak the truth and point out the hypocrisies and ironies of blind faith. I would suggest that it is people like you, spreading lies for profit for the fulfillment of obviously huge egos that are the problem. Now get back to looking in the mirror will you.
It sounds like you are making a logical contradiction. You say you are an atheist, yet you admit that "God" did something. I thought atheists denied the existence of God or gods? How can someone that does not exist in your mind do something?
On the subject of Kyle Lake, regardless of how he died, or what he did for a living, or what he stood for, you need to show more respect for another human. I didn't know Kyle, but I hurt for his family and those who witnessed his death.
Alan--thank you for explaining that the remarks of shaun groves are currently being sent out as some kind of "form letter." I thought that these were the remarks of someone who was responding specifically to what I had written about Rev. Lake's unfortunate demise, and that's why I was puzzled by his "hurt" tone. I see now that it was indeed a "cut and paste" job.
Jason,
If you would like to direct me to comments that you have made on Christian blogs which credited 'God' with killing the thousands with recent hurricanes, tidal waves and earthquakes, then I would be very interested in reading them.
If you aren't going to complain when believers treat the death of thousands with such disrespect, then don't complain to me when I point out the hypocrisy and irony of belief in 'God'.
You should also read the entire post with your irony or satire glasses on. Sorry I didn't make it obvious enough for your perception.
And I would ask you, how does someone who does not exist rule your life? What are going to say to 'God' tonight when you pray? "Thanks God for killing that wonderful man in Texas in front of his family and friends. I really, really, really believe in your power and love now".
If something like this can't open your eyes, man, then you truly are blind.
Note to Shaun Groves:
If you don't have the time to at least write an original 'outraged' response, then don't bother at all. I have already found your exact response to my post on many other blogs.
Jesus Christ man, are you just trying to promote your self or sell something from your web site? What a typical hypocritical Christian you are. Me thinks your ego may need to be checked sir.
To readers: If you find further copies of Shaun's reply on other blogs, please send the link to me.
So what was it that hurt you so bad that caused you to shake your fist at God and say that he is no more and is not there. i would say that using someones death as means to futher your proof that there is no God as a bit harsh. It is almost as though you are glad he met death, and even more glad that he met it in front of his family and freinds. maybee if he was tortured, would you like that better, yeah, what about his family too. there are plenty of books on martyrs if you need stories of Christians passing serving God. But i guess those are not as fun as poking at this story. but hey i guess your traffic has doubled and you have the attention of those conservative Christians that you so bitterly hate.
Well here we are. Why? (even though i am sure that you wont care) well i can only speak for myself. I want to say that I am sorry. I am sorry for the hurt that you experienced. I am sorry that you were damaged by the Church. The Church that is supposed to love and encourage. The Church that is supposed to feed the world with the bread of life. I will tell you this, that the man that you are using as an example for your platform, was a good man. He loved his wife and his friends, and yes his God. So, even though there doesnt seem to be much kindness in you, and no pointing the finger at people and saying "your more cruel and you call yourself a Christian" is not kindness, it is lashing out, i would examine how you criticize a person in the wake of there death, seeing is how they can offer no defense.
The problem of pain-this is a good question, if God is good then why is there famine, murder, innocent children dying? Good questions. Using someones death to gain more traffic makes you as bad as the people you rail against.
Seth
Hey Shaun, Inshallah!
Anonymous Seth,
Excuse me, do I know you? Do you know me? Please don't assume the reasons that I no longer believe. No one in my church 'hurt' me and I happen to have many Christian friends. Atheists encounter this kind of 'pity' or 'compassion' from believers who don't seem to be able to accept that someone would leave faith for other reasons.
I won't waist any space here on my reasons since I am sure that you don't really care either. You are just getting that insincere example of Christian compassion out the way.
You seem to miss the entire point of my post which was to emphasize how many Christians use the deaths of their perceived enemies as examples of 'God's' divine judgment, while completely ignoring other meaningless, horrible and cruel deaths of devout believers. My point is that these Christians can't have it both ways. If 'God' sent the hurricane to kill the infidels and sodomites of New Orleans, then he also killed this kind person in front of 800 of his followers. If you have trouble understanding this, then I agree with you. It makes no sense from the perspective of a believer in a just 'God'. But I am not one of those. I understand that what happened was a terrible, if not preventable, accident. How it happened makes it doubly tragic. Why do you think there is so much attention on the web about this? It is for the very ironic reasons that I state in my comments.
As for using this man's death for traffic, I could really care less how many people come here or read this. If what I am saying makes someone suffering from blind faith think for them self, then I am glad. If it makes you question the hypocritical stance that moderate
Christians take when it comes to what non-believers are allowed to express as opposed to believers, then I am glad for that also.
I notice there are hundreds of posts on Christian web sites with Mr. Lake's name. Are these sites not trying to 'gain more traffic' from his horrible and untimely death?
And finally, I did not criticize this man in any of my comments. I didn't know him at all. From what I have read, it sounds as if he were a very nice person and not a reactionary conservative Christian. Which only makes one ask again, why would 'God' do this to him and his family? I know the answer and I think you do too.
The Church that is supposed to feed the world with the bread of life
Without wasting any time on other portions of the comment, I just have to quickly say that this is absolutely ridiculous. People are dying all over the world because they don't have real bread, yet the Vatican sits on its billions doing nothing for these people why opposing efforts to educate them on contraceptives and safe sex so they don't spread AIDS as quickly as it does down there (Africa in these case).
Great post Alan, there was nothing inappropriate in your post. You pointed out the irony, which is unbelievably obvious for anyone who isn't completely blind to reality, quite well.
sorry for jumping to conclusions. as you have many friends that are Christians i have many friends that are Atheists, Angnostics, Homosexuals, ect. the retoric just seemed familiar to me because i have heard very similar things coming from them.
actaully i do care why you are an Atheist. partly because i would like for you to know God but also because i am kind of facinated by the Atheist. Mostly because it has never made much sense to me.-not trying to be rude. Agnostics, Hindu, Pantheist, Dualists, i can understand but i have yet to meet an Atheist that HAS ever gone beyond reactionary. anyway, sorry to mis-interpret your blog, "I notice there are hundreds of posts on Christian web sites with Mr. Lake's name. Are these sites not trying to 'gain more traffic' from his horrible and untimely death?" good point. one thing you wont find me doing is denying that Christians are Hypocritical. You are right in pointing out that Some christians will say (wrongly) that new Orleans was an act of God where as what happened with Kyle was a terrible accident." These things are true but i dont really think that these things are just being pointed out by the atheist. There are lots of Christians out there who are saying the same things. from pulpits even.
Seth
Alan, Shaun has posted a reply to you on his blog. It explains the "cut and paste" comment that has been mentioned here...and btw, I've never known Shaun to be anything but reasonable. He takes the time to explain his stand on things, and it's very rare that he's critical of other's viewpoints, unless he himself has a strong opinion on that same thing...
Thanks Seth for what I believe to be your honest and thoughtful reply.
You said:
"...i am kind of facinated by the Atheist. Mostly because it has never made much sense to me.-not trying to be rude. Agnostics, Hindu, Pantheist, Dualists, i can understand..."
Do you care to elaborate on this? I would be interested to hear why
Atheism is troubling for you while these other positions are not.
Alan
Alan,
Your title says "God kills waco pastor". I get the "satire" and "irony" in your blog. However, the peculiar part of your post is that you are automatically attributing this event to God (much less, a god you don't even believe exists). I figured you would see the "irony" and "satire" in my response.
I am a Christian, but I don't believe in predestination or that everything that happens is done by the finger of God. To believe in such a thing would allow me to say "God made Alan an atheist"...and I just don't believe God would do such a thing.
As in the case of this tragedy, I just believe Mr. Lake was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You or I could have been standing in that water (or any other body of water) and grabbed that microphone. Was what happened preventable? Yes. Was it an act of God? I doubt it.
So, what am I going to say to God tonight? I'm going to thank Him for my family and ask that He shows me ways to appreciate them more each day. I am also going to ask for Him to ease the pain of his wife and 3 children.
On another note, I, like Seth, am peculiar about atheists. I had a friend who was once agnostic (I know there's a difference) and then "found God". One thing about atheists and agnostics that I have always admired is that they may not believe in God, but most certainly do their "homework" to back up their disbelief. As for me, I believe in God because I have faith that we just didn't come from a cosmic explosion. I have faith that this short blip in time that I am here on earth is not meaningless.
Of course, one thing is that we can both agree upon is that Kyle Lake now knows something neither one of us can prove...whether or not there is a God.
Jason,
Thanks for your reply.
You said:
"Your title says "God kills waco pastor". I get the "satire" and "irony" in your blog. However, the peculiar part of your post is that you are automatically attributing this event to God (much less, a god you don't even believe exists). I figured you would see the "irony" and "satire" in my response."
I believe that our mutual ironic positions negated each other, like two negative numbers making a positive one. I perhaps was being too ironic for my own good. Obviously I don’t believe that ‘God’ made this happen.
I am a Christian, but I don't believe in predestination or that everything that happens is done by the finger of God. To believe in such a thing would allow me to say "God made Alan an atheist"...and I just don't believe God would do such a thing.
Then my post certainly wasn't 'aimed' at your brand of Christianity, but at those who do attribute all accidents, tragedies, misfortunes or even happy coincidences to God or that other guy. It would be difficult to 'make' someone an atheist as, unlike faith, Atheism is a position arrived at by reason and critical thought. In my opinion, it is a world view that does not come easily or is taken lightly considering the price that non-believers pay in most societies. It is much easier to 'make' someone believe through emotion, threat, terror or faith than by reason. However, if there is a God, then he has certainly given a lot of people plenty of reasons to not believe in him.
As in the case of this tragedy, I just believe Mr. Lake was in the wrong place at the wrong time. You or I could have been standing in that water (or any other body of water) and grabbed that microphone. Was what happened preventable? Yes. Was it an act of God? I doubt it.
I agree with you here except that there is no possibility that I would have been in that water ( :
So, what am I going to say to God tonight? I'm going to thank Him for my family and ask that He shows me ways to appreciate them more each day. I am also going to ask for Him to ease the pain of his wife and 3 children.
Why do you need 'God' to show you that? If you don't believe that 'God' is actively pushing the buttons of this world, then why ask him? You sound like a reasonable and caring person. By simply asking the question you have answered your own prayer. See, that's the way 'we' atheists think. Why give a 'God' credit for 'good' thoughts and why blame 'God' for natural events?
One thing about atheists and agnostics that I have always admired is that they may not believe in God, but most certainly do their "homework" to back up their disbelief.
I will take that as a compliment as I think it was intended. But thinking that we are 'backing up our disbelief' is not exactly correct. Disbelief is the natural state of the brain. We have to be convinced of something through experiences in the natural world in order to believe it. You wouldn't need to back up your disbelief that elephants can fly or that you should always stop at a green light. To atheists, our 'disbelief' is as obvious as either of these examples. That is why we may seem pissed off most of the time. We are honestly just frustrated at believers’ denial of their own rationality and common sense. That's an honest opinion and not intended as an insult.
As for me, I believe in God because I have faith that we just didn't come from a cosmic explosion. I have faith that this short blip in time that I am here on earth is not meaningless.
Why is it important that you think we did not come from a cosmic explosion? I think it is actually pretty incredible and exciting that we did. It would make you feel better that we came from dirt? Or if you were a woman, from a man's rib? I prefer cosmic explosion to either of those alternatives and I don't need faith to believe it.
Why would your time on earth be meaningless if you didn't believe in God? Would you not care for your wife and kids? Would you not enjoy friends, hobbies, your job? Would you not enjoy laughter or appreciate a sunrise or sunset?
10's of millions of us don't believe in any 'God' and we have meaning in our lives. Like everyone, we give meaning to our own lives. I don't think you realize how insulting it is to suggest to someone that their life has no meaning because they don't believe in a supernatural deity. It is really quite an insult, but I am sure you didn't intend it to be.
Of course, one thing is that we can both agree upon is that Kyle Lake now knows something neither one of us can prove...whether or not there is a God.
You are sounding pretty agnostic here Jason. Can't prove? I would have to disagree and say that I think the evidence is pretty clear on the existence of the biblical God and all of the other ‘Gods’ as well. If the evidence was not against it, then why would you need faith?
It doesn't bother me at all to think that Kyle simply does not exist anymore rather than that he is in a heavenly paradise, because in his short time on earth - judging from what I have read - he seems to have touched a lot of people and to have tried to make a positive difference. I would hope that he would have done the same whether he was a believer or not.
Sad but true, did you ever think God used this tradgic death to reach you?
I am not sure if you were responding to me Sonflower, but if you were then the answer is no I never considered that and now that I have, I still do not believe that. It is kind of hard when you don't believe in 'God' to try to justify what 'he' does.
This man's death was just an unfortunate, tragic, horrible accident. It would only be worse if 'God' somehow made this occur just to get to me.
Alan,
Please allow another anonymous person to join the conversation. I appreciate your sincerity and restraint from using hostility to speed up an argument.
Probably what fascinates Seth about atheism more than agnosticism or even other religions is that it takes such an extreme view. At least in agnosticism you're saying, 'maybe there's a God, maybe there isn't, we can never really know.' whereas in atheism you are saying, 'there is definitely NOT a God.'
Contrary to popular belief, science and atheism are not one and the same. Many atheists cling to science because its the only thing that makes sense to them, but there are also people of many different kinds of faith who look to science for answers.
Agnosticism is the middle ground, the 'I don't know' position. Atheism, that takes faith. Have you looked everywhere in the universe? Are you sure, positively sure, that there is no higher being anywhere? Now that's just as tough thing to believe as Hinduism.
Also, it's been mentioned elsewhere that faith relies solely on emotions...
Hmmm...I can see emotions being part of what leads a person to have faith. There are also many people who claim to have discovered God through reason. Be careful that you are not grouping in highly emotional, misguided Christians as the sole representative of anyone who claims to have faith in a higher power. It's easy to setup strawmen, it's much more challenging to engage real people. Cheers!
Kant said "two things keep me in a constant state of wonder-the stary sky above and the moral law within" Kant was in a state of wonder because there was an apparent order to the universe and there was an undeniable law of right and wrong working within him. even some of the greatest of scientists in western civ. have seriously pondered the order of the universe. Even the fact that we can understand this order of things is amazing. physicist Paul Davies said: "Why should the laws of nature be comprehensible and accessible to humans? It could, of course be just a quirk, a coincidence, with no deeper meaning. Or, it could say something purely scientific-though we dont know, precisely, whata-about the kind of beings that emerge from nature: as children of what Davies calls "the cosmic order," and perhaps it is inevitable that their minds should "reflect that order in their cognitive capabilities."
What i do not get about the Atheist, is the complete and total denial of even the possibility of a Creator, creative force, a mind or power of any kind behind the order of the universe. to think so would be to believe that all things are by total chance. to think that all things are chance rules out the possibilities of a stable and pervailing law that would govern anything at all. Where the Agnostic at least acknowledges the possibility of a God, the Atheist refuses this possibility. I wonder if you are an atheist in the truest meaning of the word. it seems apparent that simply by the fact that the universe works on systems and laws even at the quantum level screams the possibility of a mind behind it all. Albert Einstein said "My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviciton of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."
Their is an apparent arrogance in the atheist. A total refusal to believe in the notion of a God. of course you might try and say the same for the Christian. I have, as a Christian been open to the possibility that maybe i am wrong about Christianity, but never have i been able to, with all the reasoning that i can muster been able to imagine an elegantly designed universe with out a designer. Alan Sandage, the winner of the Crawford Prize in astronomy said "I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existenc, why there is something instead of nothing." of course the writer of Ecclesiastes had a similar awe-ispiring comment "He has made everything beautiful in its time; also he has put eternity into man's mind, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." Ecclesiastes 3:11
thanks for the conversation, i really do want to learn where you are coming from.
Seth
Alan,
As you can tell, Shaun Groves has an audience. I too linked over from one of your posts on Shaun's site because I wondered what you posted. Let me add something that might help you with your understanding of "Baptist."
I am a Baptist, even one of the Southern Baptist flavor though most would consider me a Texas Baptist. I used to lean toward the fundamentalist side, but now I'm more of a heretic to that ilk. the thing about Baptists is that we're all free to define our faith, so generalizations are useless.
You said, "Waco, Tx, home of the largest Southern Baptist university." Technically you are correct, but very few in the Southern Baptist Convention will claim Baylor. It is a Texas Baptist school.
YOu also said, " How wonderful to be faithless so that events like this can be viewed as what they are; horrible accidents that have nothing to do with an imaginary 'God'." The implication is that all Christians must think God did this. I don't. I think it was indeed a horrible accident that didn't necessarily have anything to do with God. You see I'm a believer in the freewill of humanity not absolute determinism. I don't think God is sitting with a day-runner checking off the horrid death of the day, and on Sunday it fell on Kyle, a person I met briefly but who I remember well.
I suppose my point is that I understand the tenor of your post. I understand that the hyper-religious are annoying. They annoy me, and I would bet they annoyed Kyle. He believed in a missional church, a church that exists for ministry, not to occupy a church and sermonize and collect people's money. I even understand choosing not to believe. What I don't understand is lumping all believers into one group because there are many who wouldn't want to be associated with my faith nor would I with theirs.
Alan,
God was not punishing Kyle. In fact I doubt God wanted Kyle to die. God allowed it; he did not dictate it. God knows everything that will happen, but he allows free will, which does not mean that he commands bad things to happen, only that he does not always stop them from happening. God will use Kyle’s death though. He will make amazing things happen in the wake of this tragedy; if we allow Him to work in our lives that is.
It is sad you have been exposed to so many hateful Christians. It is the same with Christians as it is with most demographics; the most outspoken are usually not the true voice of the masses. I wish more Christ-Like Christians would speak out so that people would see a better example of our God. Then again, Christ was quiet and did not force himself on others, so I suppose it is fitting that Christ-like Christians exalt Christ love gently and without the pomp and drama that attracts the media.
Alan,
I found your blog after read Shaun's entry about Kyle. I believe in God quite deeply, but I think I'll be visiting your blog regularly because I , like Seth, am very interested in your thoughts.
What would you say to Kyle's wife? Believers pray for people in pain and share scriptures etc., what would you do? I hope that doesn't sound antagonistic, I'm just really curious.
kat
Please Read!
I would like to reply individually to some of the post I have received, but doubt I will have time before I have to leave for a trip in a few days.
I do want to make one point that almost all of you (Christians) are making that is in error.
Atheists simply don't believe in a theistic God or Gods. That's all that it means to be an atheist. We like to say that we are agnostics with balls. I don't understand someone being agnostic myself. I mean, you either believe something or you don't. How can you not know what you believe? Come on. You may be wavering but still believe, or be, like most atheists, unconvinced by the current evidence.
I will use this analogy. I am an atheist (don't believe in the existence of supernatural deities). If tomorrow I walk out my front door and Zeus appears in a large cloud above me, reaches down and smacks me around, then I will no longer be an atheist. If the God of the bible did the same thing, then I would no longer be an atheist. Would I worship either one of these guys? Hell no. But I would have no choice but to believe they exist. It would require my complete ignorance of all my senses to do otherwise.
Do any of you believe in Zeus? Then we are basically the same ... only I believe in one less 'God' than you do.
Also, atheists don't worship science or treat science as a religion. I personally think that there are areas of concern for everyone in scientific advancements where common human morality comes into play. Science has been a thorn in the side of theology for thousands of years and is a favorite scapegoat for less tolerant believers and is therefore identified with atheists. Most scientists are atheist simply because the more you know of how the world works, the less likely you will believe in mythical deities. It makes sense really.
And finally, we (atheists) certainly don't think that we have all the answers. If you seriously look at who thinks they have all the answers you will find that it is the faithful who hold that view. Allah has all the answers. Jehovah has all the answers. The Bible has all the answers. And so on and so on. So for believers to accuse atheists of being arrogant is really the pot calling the kettle black.
One final note: If you are going to pray for me, then just do it. You don't need to announce it to me. I find those types of posts to be completely useless in any sort of dialogue and I will delete them along with any post that is rude or suggests that I censor myself.
I look forward to your civil replies and I will respond as time permits.
Reply to Kat
You said:
"What would you say to Kyle's wife? Believers pray for people in pain and share scriptures etc., what would you do?"
That is really hard to answer because I do not know her. The simple and obvious answer would be 'I am sorry for your loss' or something to that effect. Knowing what to say to someone you are not acquainted with in these circumstances is always difficult. Of course, I wouldn't share scripture with her and I wouldn't pray because - well the obvious'.
Perhaps I can shed better light on your question with this example.
I lost my father 2 months ago - a heart attack at age 73 - completely unexpected. He was a Christian though he had not attended church in 25 years. I was on the road 500 miles away when it happened and it was an absolute nightmare getting the news, having to travel, the anticipation of seeing my family in these circumstances.
When I met my family at the funeral home to view the body the day before the service, my brother and I were looking at what was my dad and were just sharing a quite moment. We are not close - my brother and I. He is the poster child for right-wing religious zealots. But at this moment we were sharing the same grief. My uncle on my mom's side who is a self-ordained minister (cult leader actually) walked up and joined us, obviously searching for something to say. He began to tell us about the first time he met my dad in the 1940's and to tell a couple of stories. It was actually very nice. My father was an unbelievably private man and any information on his childhood or past is always a revelation to us (his kids).
But then, this uncle started to quote some obscure scripture. And then more scripture. Both my brother and I were visibly annoyed by this. It just wasn't appropriate. The scriptures he was quoting were not even applicable to the situation. My uncle seemed to get annoyed that we weren't giving him any 'Amens' or 'Yes, brother' and kept quoting louder and louder. Finally my brother and I walked away.
If there were one thing I would try to get you believers to understand it is that quoting scriptures to non-believers is just about the most alienating thing you could possibly do. Whether a person believes or not, we all share common human experiences and emotions. These are things that we all can relate to regardless of faith or faithlessness. Quoting from your particular Holy Book is like driving a wedge between yourself and the object (victim) of your attention.
So to get back to your question, if I did know Kyle's wife and had shared memories of him and his family, I probably would mention that. You may be surprised to find out that I do believe in an afterlife; it is the memories that our friends and family carry with them after we are gone.
You may also be surprised to know that I, the only atheist in the family, delivered my father's eulogy. Even the cult leader uncle complimented me on it.
The S.B. pastor who followed did an absolutely wretched job, hardly mentioning my dad, whom he had never met, but delivering a hell and brimstone sermon directed at me.
Alan, i have had a similar experience at a funeral and believe me it as unpleasant for the Christian as it is for the Atheist. A prevalent arguement for the Athiest against the exsistence of God is the idea that having a beleif in God at all is a form of Mythology. An attempt to attribute things in the natural world to Spirits or things that our imagination can conjure. Many would say that this is a flaw and the Christian view of God simply follows in that line of trying to explain the unexplainable with fairy tail...Of course my reply is that it is all the more proof that God exsists. Mans ability to percieve a God is a marvel in itself. Mythology is simply mans best attempt to discover the character of the Creator behind the Created. One of the reasons why i believe in Christianity. It has just the amount of mythology that one would identfy with but has just that much more of something that none would have guessed or invented. If you think about it the whole universe sort of works that way also.
but before i jabber any further, i just want to clarify your line of thinking. You only believe things or choose to believe things that you see or feel. " If tomorrow I walk out my front door and Zeus appears in a large cloud above me, reaches down and smacks me around, then I will no longer be an atheist." i hate overgeneralizing so i just want to get this part right.
Basically you think that the brain in its natural state, is in a state of disbelief. and that when things happen and you are effected by those things then you chose to beleive or believe them as they come.- that sound close? i guess this is why many would associate the atheist with science. The scientific method sort of works the same way.
"like most atheists, unconvinced by the current evidence." surley becoming visible and smacking you arround would not be the only way for you to believe. their are things that you or we do not see all the time but we still believe are there. see it to believe it sounds as simplistic as the Christian who says i dont care how God did it, i just know he did it. I think this is kind of a cop out (for the Christian) myself. It is a reaction out of fear. The brave Christian lets himself be tested by what he learns and the more he learns about God then the more he or she can Love their Creator even if it means that what he learns shakes his beliefs to their foundations. One of the reasons i am here on your blog.
Thanks for your thoughtful replys to so many tough questions.
Seth
Alan,
Thank you so much for your thoughtful reply. I'm very sorry for your loss. Two months isn't very long ago. I imagine the pain is quite fresh. I appreciate you using such a personal example to respond to my question. I agree that prayer and scripture quoting is far too often used at inappropriate times and in inappropriate ways. I'm sorry you had to experience that.
I've been thinking about atheism quite a bit lately and I think the root of my original question is that I don't see that there is any hope in atheism. I mean what *do* you believe in?
I can't imagine living without hope, but I also can't imagine much hope apart from my relationship with God...particulary in the hard times. If I didn't believe in God, and I lost my husband, I think I would feel the weight of the world on my shoulders, knowing that it was completely up to me to make it through and help my kids make it too.
For me, it's just mind blowing to be able to believe that anything, whether logical or realistic, or not, is totally possible. I love believing for impossible things.
So, what do you hope in and how big are your hopes?
I really want to know and I really am interested in what you think. In the past I think I was the kind of Christian you don't think very highly of, but lately I'm just hungry to learn and to question and to refine what I believe. I used to be afraid to ask questions, but then I realized that if my God isn't big enough to handle questions, then I don't think He's big enough to be my God.
Thanks again Alan, for the honest and open discussion.
You asked if we, the survivors of Kyle Lake, will get back on our knees and pray, and I simply answer yes, today and everyday to follow. That is what we call faith, you can call it what you want. Thats all I have to say
Kat,
I realize that I am speaking rather broadly here and perhaps making assumptions about all atheists and what they believe. Of course I can only speak for myself, but I think my views are fairly common amongst atheists.
You said:
"what *do* you believe in?"
Ha, I get that one a lot and I have to say it always is a little perplexing to me. I don't understand why a lot of people seem to think Atheists don't believe in anything.
The difference between the sum total of what I 'believe' and what you 'believe' to be true is probably very small. I would guess that the major differences would be in the realm of the supernatural.
What I don't believe in are spirits, demons, devils, Gods, gremlins, etc etc. It is not that I have just decided that I will refuse to believe in these things, it is simply that there is no reason to believe in them and there is no evidence for them. All of these beliefs can be explained by other more obvious and logical means.
I do believe in the power of our minds, our emotions and our imaginations and the ability of belief to motivate people, both for the good and for the bad. That brings me near to your next question:
So, what do you hope in and how big are your hopes?
The short answer: I put my hope in the innate 'goodness' of humanity. Perhaps I am naive, but I think most people want to do the right thing and want to help their fellow inhabitants of earth. I have pretty big hopes. I hope that one day the world will be at peace, people will not be divided by cultural or religious differences. I hope that humankind's energy will be put into solving 'real' problems that face us and not directed toward political or religious ends.
One of my major problems with Christianity is the doctrine of guilt and original sin. I realize that not all Christians accept these doctrines and I wish more would reject them. But they are the basis for the entire Jesus story. He died because we aren't worthy to live, we are all sinners and deserve to burn for eternity in hell. That type of belief is not healthy for anyone. I don't believe anyone deserves that. I certainly don't believe we are born deserving that.
I realize that your underlying question is really about 'God' and how a person could go on and have hope without 'God'. I don't know that I was ever at a position in my belief that I couldn't imagine being happy without a belief in 'God', but I was close enough that I can empathize with your dilemma.
You will just have to trust me when I say that most Atheists I know have wonderful meaning to their lives, they enjoy and appreciate every minute that they have. We (atheists) have hope for the future, for ourselves and for mankind. The question of 'God' is settled for us, at least until something happens (real) to change our minds. We only have to think about our lack of belief because of persecution or infringements on our rights by the religious.
And you would probably be surprised to learn just how many well known people are atheists. I will link to this site only to indicate to you that these are real people whose names you will probably recognize. I don't think the fact that they are 'celebrities' makes their belief any more of less important than anyone elses.
http://www.celebatheists.com/w/index.php?title=Main_Page
Not all of us are so vocal about it. I actually do have a life beyond this blog where my lack of belief is no hindrance to performing the normal day to day duties of a functioning and social human being.
What we (atheists) don't have is inappropriate guilt for simply being alive. We don't worry about death, because we are too busy enjoying being alive and trying to create a world for our self and others that allow an opportunity for everyone to be happy. I know that sounds like some cheesy sales pitch, but it is true, for me at least.
Let me leave you with this question:
If you were to find that the doctrines and beliefs in Christianity were just not working for you or were not compatible with what you 'need', would you consider looking elsewhere for something to satisfy your needs? I am not talking atheism, just the possibility that perhaps another religion or belief might make more sense or not have as many contradictions for you.
Response the Seth
I am getting out of order on my responses here, so my apologies. I am choosing the questions that seem to be genuine and interesting.
Seth said:
"like most atheists, unconvinced by the current evidence." surely (A God) becoming visible and smacking you around would not be the only way for you to believe.
Let me put it this way. The evidence that you would require to believe that elephants can fly is probably the same criteria I would put to the existence of God. Why should something as powerful as 'God' not have to live up to my normal standards of reality?
Seth Said:
see it to believe it sounds as simplistic as the Christian who says i dont care how God did it, i just know he did it.
I wouldn't necessarily paint my view as 'see it or believe it'. I see plenty of things I don't believe. A good magician is a prime example. I would simply require real world evidence for 'Gods' existence.
Seth Said:
Thanks for your thoughtful replys to so many tough questions.
Tough for who? No offense, but your questions aren't tough for me at all and I enjoy answering them.
Additional Response to Seth
Sorry, I missed this part of your post:
Seth Said:
"Mans ability to percieve a God is a marvel in itself. Mythology is simply mans best attempt to discover the character of the Creator behind the Created."
You seem to admit that mythology is an attempt to explain 'something'. It is that 'something' that we disagree on. A 'Creator' isn't the source of the myth, a 'Creator' IS the myth.
Thousands of years ago mankind attributed all manner of natural phenomenon to a 'God' or 'Gods'. Lighting, thunder, rain, earthquakes, drought, famine, disease; all of these things had their deities who made these things happen or that could be appeased. As mankind advanced and was able to explain these things from a natural viewpoint, the 'Gods' began to disperse, they were no longer needed.
This concept is known as the 'God of the Gaps'. Basically, anything that science or nature cannot explain is credited to a 'God'. God's Gap is now getting pretty small. A vociferous religious minority are fighting the very definition of science to try to have their 'creator' entered into text books in order to fill one of those remaining gaps. I don't think any of us can appreciate the dire consequences for our advancement as a species that this situation brings forth.
Even you and many other Christians in this conversation will say that you don't think 'God' is actively participating in events now on earth. That was the whole point of my original post. So (some of) you have given 'God' a kind of warm fuzzy place where he can coexist with science and where he perhaps just jump started the whole natural world.
If you really examine your beliefs, I think you will find that you aren't that much different from those people thousands of years ago who were trying to explain the unknown and alleviate fear. You want answers and belief in 'God' provides them.
But you have to understand; that does not make 'God' real. It certainly can't make 'God' real for someone like me who has come to terms with the fear of the unknown without the need for faith.
hey alan,
if you don't believe in GOD, in your opinion how did this world come to be? big bang, just curious, thanks for your time.
<>< smb
"If you really examine your beliefs, I think you will find that you aren't that much different from those people thousands of years ago who were trying to explain the unknown and alleviate fear. You want answers and belief in 'God' provides them. " i thought that i was making it clear that i do not think that i am. and i am afraid to say it but you are not that different either. the world has always had its atheists. and dare i say they were Atheist by choice then too. Hate to bust your bubble but you are not the next link in the evolutionary chain. What i am interested in is the idea that man has always been aware of a Creator, or God. This is not something that every creature on earth dreams up. Evidence of worship is as old we can dig up and this is both a blessing and curse for the atheist. on one hand you say, well what a bunch of mindless cave dwellers, but then you could also say that it is a pretty abstract thought for such a primitive mind. My dog gets scared of the thunder but nothing in the scientific study of the k-9 suggests that they believe there is a God behind that thunder. I am in no way insinuating that simply based on these prnciples that i am a believer. I am simply trying to argue that an awareness of God is as far back as we can study and i find this facinating.
I agree that we attribute many things to God that are simply the workings of the Natural world of his creation. I also do believe in the Miraculous...there are three great miracles as Descartes calls them 1. things out of nothing 2. free will 3. and a man who was God. Not the only miracles but probably the most mind-boggling. Now contrary to the veiw of attributing things that we do not understand to God like lightning and thunder, these three things (you will say especially no 3.) are still not totally explainable nor will they ever be-scientifically or by the Christian. they simply defy science they simply go beyond the imagination, but not reason. the greatest minds in science or philosopy have either tried to exlain them away or fallen short of explaining them fully. The Atheist along with the Theist still stand in awe at the universe speechless as they continue to discover its mysteries and origin. where do they differ? one says there is a creator, the other says it just happened. you would say that creating something from nothing is pretty simplistic but actually if find it harder to grasp then the alternative. you might say that creation has been perpetually going on for all eternity, then you are still faced with another mystery unexplainable, the infinite.
You said:
"What we (atheists) don't have is inappropriate guilt for simply being alive. We don't worry about death, because we are too busy enjoying being alive and trying to create a world for our self and others that allow an opportunity for everyone to be happy." It is amazing how similar the Christian view is ""What we Christians don't have is inappropriate guilt for simply being alive. We don't worry about death, because we are too busy enjoying being alive and even when we die we can look forward to something even better beyond the material world and any suffering that might come our way during our stint here. trying to live for our self and others that allow an opportunity for everyone to be happy." "Love one another" "Do unto others..." "In this world you will have trouble but I leave you my peace" (sorry scripture alert! dont delete my entry ;) )
"You seem to admit that mythology is an attempt to explain 'something'. It is that 'something' that we disagree on. A 'Creator' isn't the source of the myth, a 'Creator' IS the myth." the creator of the myth is the man. the myth is created to describe or understand an amazing instinct in humans-the instinct to believe in a Creator. i guess we could go round and round on which came first, but that would be futile. not that it matters but i am pretty sure that if we were arguing if the Atheist or the Theist came first then you do have me on that one. It was defintely the Theist.
"even you and many other Christians in this conversation will say that you don't think 'God' is actively participating in events now on earth." i believe that God participates in every moment of everything in creation. As Christians we beleive that he holds all things together. If you are holding it together with the will of your mind then you are certainly participating.
I come back to this quote-
"... alleviate fear. You want answers and belief in 'God' provides them." I could not agree and disagree more. While we can find great comfort and Joy in knowing the Love of God, Believing in God can much more frightening then not believing. Take our friend who was electrocuted, If i dont believe in God then the problem of pain and suffering is thrown out the door. Believing in God opens the doors to more questions then the simplistic view of Atheism. How could a God be holding things together and letting them run their course at the same time? The trinity, man who was God, the sins of mankind taken upon himself for our freedom, Grace, believing in the providence of God is much more difficult than trusting myself. The void is much easier to embrace then a God who has a will and who gave us a chance to obey him and we blew it. I here many Christians here saying that "if there is no God then whats the purpose of everything" a valid but juvenile question. As they get older as a Christian they will find out that question does not get much easier. a purpose is not that hard to find for the Atheist or the Christian. The top selling Christian book last year was "the purpose driven life" purpose is everywhere. to love and be loved. for one. I guess what i am trying to say is that Being a Christian or one who believes in God is much more difficult than you make it out to be my friend. But ultimately, even after i give you countless examples of the worlds greatest scientists from Einstein to Hawkings, who attest to a great probability of a creator it does still boil down to faith. faith for the Atheist is a favorite punching bag. but as much as you would deny your use of it, you have faith in something. your mind, your senses, your logic, your friends, the chair you sit on, the person that put it together, your sanity...ect. there is something that you simply trust will work. even the patron saint of Atheists Carl Sagan (or shaw) wrestled with the concept of faith.
Finally, you said "The short answer: I put my hope in the innate 'goodness' of humanity." where do you think this "innate" goodness comes from and how do you measure those standards of Goodness.?
by the way, thank you for the best conversation i have had in a long time.
Seth
If you were to find that the doctrines and beliefs in Christianity were just not working for you or were not compatible with what you 'need', would you consider looking elsewhere for something to satisfy your needs? I am not talking atheism, just the possibility that perhaps another religion or belief might make more sense or not have as many contradictions for you.
Alan,
I think so. I've really only begun my journey of feeling free to question everything I know about God. I'm honestly not really aware of any contradictions and I have a hard time imagining not having my needs met through my relationship with God, but I'm really at such a place of wanting to learn that I want to consider and question the most fundamental things that I believe. I've grown up so conservative that it feels quite "wrong" to even weigh the possibility that Christianity isn't true.
You mentioned that you hope for big things like world peace and a good future for mankind, but what about the day to day stuff? Do you have big hopes? Something that I'm just now learning that is exciting to me is that *anything* is possible with God. I believe that God doesn't just have some meaning for my life, but that He has amazing stuff waiting for me if I'll just believe.
I love the idea that even though I'm just your average stay at home, suburban mom, that God could use me today to change the world. It's so exciting to me that I can believe for crazy things and see them happen.
A friend of mine, Brian, felt like God was teaching him to believe for crazy things, in particular, free two tickets to a Texas Rangers game. He invited a boy he was mentoring to go to the game and told him that he was learning to believe for the unbelievable and that he thought God wanted him (Brian) to believe for two free tickets to the game. They went to the game and were waiting in line. There were well over 50 people in line. A man walked up to them and asked if they needed tickets - he had one to sell. Brian said,"Thanks, but I need two tickets." The guy moved on, but a few minutes later came back and told him that he felt like he was just supposed to give him the ticket. Drew, the boy he was with, was dumbfounded. When they got through the line and up to the window, the ticket lady asked how many they needed. Brian told her they just needed one. She told him that she had a free ticket she could give him. (He didn't ask.) At this point Drew was beside himself. He kept saying, "We just got two free tickets!" Brian happened to decide to believe for two free tickets on that day and got them. Not only that, but they were on the third row.
It's not just crazy that they got the tickets, but that he got the exact thing that he felt like God told him to believe for. He's been to plenty of other sporting events without getting free tickets or even expecting free tickets.
It's just a little example of one of the most important parts of my faith. It's SO exciting for me. To think that I can believe and pray that someone who's never walked will walk - today. To believe and pray that a family needing money will get it just in time. Of course I want to help people and do what I can along the way, but to feel as though I have access to limitless resources and power to help people...how incredible is that?
This hope is really new to me. I'd never really thought about it until a week or so ago. I hope to have some stories of my own soon.
I just can't really imagine not having that hope. Do you have some variation of it? Believing in chance or something like that? If not, how do you feel when you face a seemingly impossible situation?
Again, Alan, thanks for the great dialogue. I've lived a very sheltered life and being able to have a mature discussion with someone who's belief system is completely different from my own is incredibly refreshing and enlightening.
Seth,
No offense, but there are so many assumptions, logical and factual errors and straw men in your post that it is probably going to be after I get back from a business trip before I can get to a reply to you. I will do my best to reply by Monday night.
Hold your thoughts until then if possible. Thanks.
sure,
Seth
Reply to Kat
I understand your feelings and views that you expressed in your last response, but honestly, some of what you say concerns me.
I understand the need for hope and the need for wishes. I can't really think of a difference in the two, they are basically the same thing.
In my own life, I hope or wish for something with the knowledge of the likelihood that it (the wished for thing) would happen and base my hope on that. If I am wishing/hoping to win the lottery - hang on a minute. Damn. Just checked and I didn't win. I thought I might have a story for you. (:
Anyway, I base my personal day-to-day hopes on reality, what I can realistically hope for that day, or what I can realistically expect to accomplish that day. Sometimes I set higher hopes than others. Sometimes I am surprised and a day goes much better than expected. I suppose the big difference is that I don't blame or give credit to 'God' when a day goes better than hoped or worse than hoped. To me, that's just life.
I am naturally skeptical, so your story about your friend who 'wished' for the tickets and got them can't help but raise my skeptical radar. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that you made up the story or even that your friend lied to you. It is just human nature, particularly in people of strong religious beliefs, to perhaps turn happy coincidences or natural events into miracles. You only need to look as far as all the visions of the Virgin Mary on doors, sidewalks, window stains or grilled cheese sandwiches to understand what I am saying.
If your friend is looking for miracles, then he is probably going to find them, big or small.
Going back to the lottery, here is an example from my own life. I was raised in a 'no lottery/no-gambling' family and combined with my natural skepticism, the lottery has never appealed to me. But I have a friend who plays the lottery religiously. He called one night and insisted that I buy a ticket because the jackpot was huge. I had to go to the supermarket anyway, so I got one. He called to next day and asked if I had won. I had not even checked the numbers and pulled my ticket out. He started to call the winning numbers out and to my surprise, I matched one. No two. No three. No four. No kidding, I matched the first four numbers he called. I asked how much that meant I had won and he said at least $175. Well, now my interest was peaked. But, alas, I did not match any other numbers.
Now this was literally one of the first times I had ever played the lottery and I won $175. My friend who plays religiously has never won that much. If I were a religious person wishing for huge things from ‘God’, then my good luck would surely have been credited to ‘God’ and no doubt I would have since sunk a ton of money into the lottery. However, being skeptical, I realized that if my friend doesn't break even playing the lottery almost daily, then I should stop playing now while I am $175 ahead. As it is, I am playing out that $175 windfall.
We all know the odds against winning a big multi-state payoff in the lottery, yet eventually someone will win one of those enormous jackpots. The odds are that whoever wins it would be hoping and wishing to win, perhaps praying to win. They may even have had a gut feeling that this is one that is going to win it for them. Of course a few million other people were having those same feelings and they are all going to lose. My point is that things happen, good and bad every day. Highly unlikely things happen every day. It is very easy when something good happens to try to assign it to 'God' or some other force just as it is easy (and dangerous) to assign misfortune to 'God's wrath'.
Fortune tellers and TV psychics use this part of our nature to their advantage. The technique is called ‘Cold Reading’. It plays on the fact that we will basically remember all of the names, events or details that a so-called psychic gets right, while discounting or forgetting all the things they get wrong.
Wishful thinking and prayer is the same way. We have a tendency to forget all the times that wishes or prayers are unanswered, but think it a miracle or sign of 'God' when a wish or prayer is seemingly answered.
Another example: When some disaster strikes, be it an airplane crash or earthquake, flood or what have you, the media will always look for a 'miracle' story. If one person, for instance, survives a fiery plane crash where all others were killed, then it was a 'miracle' that they survived. However, what about all the other people on the plane? Is it a 'miracle' they were killed. Do you see what I mean? If studying a certain plane crash tells crash investigators that the occupants had a 1% chance of survival and there were 100 people on the plane, then there should, statistically be 1 survivor. That is not a miracle, it is reality.
I suppose that brings me back to where I started. I base my hopes and wishes on a base of reality - the reality of what I have experienced in the past, the reality of what I know about myself and my own nature.
Sometimes things go better than hoped and sometimes worse. But I don't blame a 'God' when they go bad or worry that I have done something to deserve bad luck and I don't give 'God' credit for good luck which has come from my efforts or those of my friends or family.
I hope that long-winded answer helps you to understand my particular view, as a skeptic and atheist, on day to day hope.
Reply to SMB
You said:
if you don't believe in GOD, in your opinion how did this world come to be? big bang, just curious,
I don't really know. But the fact that I don't know, doesn't assume that 'God' did it. On the available evidence, I think that the Big Bang theory is the best idea that we have right now.
BTW, if you are going where I think you are going with this question, do me a personal favor and hold off on your reply until I get back on Monday.
Thanks.
Wow, looks like you really did get hit here. I guess I should consider myself lucky for only two comments. You know something though, I think alot of people from this church went out looking for these blogger posts to try and defend him. I went and tried to look at the profiles for the two "women" that commented. No info in there profile, no blog, and signed up in October (probably registered just to make the post on my site).
Obviously these people know their pastor died in an incredibly moronic way and are just trying to defend him. Either that or they're trying to keep themselves from looking bad for listening to a guy that stupid.
Replies to Seth,
Some of your points here have been taken up on a more previous thread with Delta, so I will let those go for now.
Seth Said
Hate to bust your bubble but you are not the next link in the evolutionary chain.
I hate to break it to you, but we (atheists) are! No really.
Seth Said
Evidence of worship is as old we can dig up and this is both a blessing and curse for the atheist. on one hand you say, well what a bunch of mindless cave dwellers, but then you could also say that it is a pretty abstract thought for such a primitive mind.
I could have quoted a lot from that paragraph but this generally gets to the gist of what you were saying.
I would say that it isn't really that surprising that man has always attempted to explain the natural world throughout our development. These cave men who decided that thunder must be caused by another much larger cave man in the clouds banging some rocks together, were the scientists of their time. That was the best reasoning and theory that they could come up with. The less curious of the cave men (and dogs to bring that analogy from your posts), simply ran into the cave and hid (or under the bed in the case of my dog).
As we developed, we began to truly understand the causes for the natural world and slowly the need for all the different theories (Gods) were discarded. God kept getting smaller and smaller and less involved as the direct cause for natural phenomenon to the point that today, he is simply credited with starting the big bang and giving people a good feeling (presence of 'God').
Heck, why do you need a 'God' for that. I am in the middle of a 'good feeling' and it has nothing to do with a 'God'. I digress.
Let's face it. The real need for 'God' today is reassurance for the remaining major 'mysteries' of life: What was before the beginning and what is after the end.
It is a result of our large and sophisticated brains that we even ponder such things. As you point out, dogs don't worry about 'God' being responsible for thunder - they just hide under the bed. Dogs also don't worry or get depressed about what is going to happen after they are dead. If they did, and they let us know, I assure you they would cease to be man's best friend.
When groups of cave men who had come to different conclusions (religious beliefs) about reasons for natural events met, then tribalism was formed. Religion is simply the unnecessary extension of this tribalism into the 21st century. If it were not for the political and social pressure to conform, these tribal belief systems (myths) would long ago have ceased to exist. They ceased to be necessary long ago. You only need to reflect upon the millions of atheists through the centuries to see proof of that.
Seth Said
the myth is created to describe or understand an amazing instinct in humans-the instinct to believe in a Creator.
You almost sound as if you are arguing for my viewpoint here. You seem to admit that the creator is a myth and that we have an instinct to believe in 'a creator'. Wouldn't that indicate to you that the 'creator' is product of our mind and not the other way around?
Seth Said
In reply to my statement that I believe in the innate goodness of people ...
where do you think this "innate" goodness comes from and how do you measure those standards of Goodness.?
You won't like the answer, but it is.. prepare yourself .... Evolution!
As they became social and more dependent on each other to help to raise and protect our increasingly complicated young, our cave men ancestors had to learn to cooperate in order to survive and thrive. Those that did not, died. Those that were more cooperative and worked for the common good, survived. This is Evolution at its simplest level.
Basically, the good guys won and the assholes got thrown off cliffs.
The ancient reasons for why most of us want to do 'good' and feel guilty when we do 'wrong' doesn't really concern me. The idea that a two thousand year old collection of stories, myths and object lessons (as well as atrocities, inaccuracies and contradictions) of mostly anonymous origin is credited with all of our ideas of 'right' and 'wrong', does concern me.
I personally feel more comfort in knowing that history and evolution indicate that the 'good' will survive and the 'bad' will still be getting thrown off cliffs (or at least out of civil societies) for the foreseeable future.
Alan, great responses, also to delta, although I strongly disagree more with you both. i have not died or lost interest but am extremely busy on a dissertation and grading papers. I have responses that i am biting at the bit to give but my wife will kick me where the sun dont shine if I dont finish this friggin degree in may due to blogging. (she told me i could have 5 minutes to log in here) Delta, if you are reading, yours is commin'too.
"There's something in every atheist, itching to believe, and something in every believer, itching to doubt." --Mignon McLaughlin
"Science without religion(belief in God)is lame, religion(ibid.) without science is blind."--Albert Einstein
Seth
“I’d rather be a could be if I cannot be an are, for a could be is a maybe that is reaching for a star. I’d rather be a has been than a might have been by far, for a might have been has never been, but a has was once an are.” Milton Berle
Wow. I couldn't read all of the posts because it's a long thread that's very confrontational and just painful to read. So if I say something somebody already said: sorry, but I don't think I will. I'll say outright I'm a Christian. I'm a Baptist. And proud to be so. I feel no need to pressure you into believing in a God. I won't force my beliefs on you. I'll just tell you what I think - I don't want to debate theology with you. It's funny but I'm not surprised by the atheistic response to this tragedy. I'm sure that I would say the exact same thing from that side of the fence. Here's what I believe wholeheartedly: God did not do this. God didn't kill his servant doing his work. God didn't do Katrina. Or Wilma – as I’ve just experienced fully. God didn’t force hundreds of people out of their homes and kill their kids and their families. God didn’t cause 9/11. God didn’t kill 3 of my friends on a church bus that I was on last year when we were hit by another car and driven into a canal. I've heard the same lines that people pull out as some sort of warm fuzzy. "God's way is bigger than ours." "We can't know God's plan." "They're in a better place." Although I fully believe all of those statements are 100% true. That's not the answer to the questions people are asking. See we forget one huge thing in this whole situation.
About 6000 years ago, a guy named Satan infiltrated this world and disrupted life as it was. He was given control (limited - but still control) over this earth and it's occupants. Yes, God is ultimately in control. As far as power goes, God is it. Satan doesn't stand a chance in the long run. But this is the short run. And fact is, Satan will do anything-ANYTHING-to hinder God's will and work being accomplished on this earth. Whether it be killing church kids on a bus, giving innocent people cancer and other diseases, causing disastrous weather condition, sending terrorists to hijack planes and strap bombs to their own bodies, or eletrocuting a young vital pastor...he will do whatever he can to stop us from doing what we are here to do.
Did God allow it? Yeah, he did. Why? How the heck should I know? That's why I'm not God. And we intelligent yet finite minds speculating on divine reasoning...yeah, that makes sense. Maybe there isn't even a reason, maybe that's just the way it is. We weren't placed here to question. Doesn't mean we won't. It just means, we probably won't get an answer that appeases our curiosity any time in this life.
We also haven't even factored in the flawed mankind issue. We aren't perfect. And sometime we screw up. I don't know what goes through your mind when you get electrocuted, but if Kyle had a thought I bet it was along the lines of "Why the heck did I do that? Touching an electronic while standing in water." And I don't mean that disrespectfully at all. I say that because that's what I would think. I do everyday. "Why did I say that? That was dumb." "I should never have done that stupid thing..." We are a flawed race. Anybody wonder why people stayed in an evacuated area of New Orleans? Should God be blamed for their error? I think not.
Hate crimes against homosexuals or other religions (including but not limited to Islam) and whatever other thing being abused in anyway is not the Christian way. Not for a real Christian. There are those who use “Christianity” as a front, and excuse to be hateful and awful to people. Just because you don’t agree with a lifestyle doesn’t make hate crimes acceptable. And I mean crimes – like blowing up an abortion clinic. I don’t believe in abortion, homosexuality, or alcohol (etc). But I’m not going to treat you differently because you believe differently. And a real Christian should live by the same standard. Christ didn’t reject the sinner for his sin. Thank God (or where would any of us be…greased pole to hell for sure). And to God, whether you lie or murder – you’re perfectly equal in your sin.
Okay - my rant is done. Hope I didn't offend anyone out there. Christian. Atheist. Undecided. Whatever. I say every word with absolute conviction and love. Have some thicker skin. And be open-minded. We will probably never see eye-to-eye. Why have a debate (or whatever euphemism you want) if we refuse to ever try to see what the other person is saying. BTW – that doesn’t mean agree. Just see.
I really am done this time.
Thanks for your reply Dana.
Would I not be correct in condensing your post down to this statement?
The Devil did it
Well, I am sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense to an atheist or to the idea that 'God' is in control. Either 'God' is in control and let the Devil do this or 'God' is not in control and the Devil was able to do this. Which is it?
You said Did God allow it? Yeah, he did. Why? How the heck should I know? That's why I'm not God.
Earlier in your post you referred to the following comments as 'warm fuzzies' that people pull out to try to explain these things: "God's way is bigger than ours." "We can't know God's plan." How are your later comments any different than those? They are not. They are exactly the same comments.
What amazes me is that you know the real answer to the question, but your religious dogma and closed mind will not allow you to accept it. You hit the nail on the head with this paragraph:
We aren't perfect. And sometime we screw up. I don't know what goes through your mind when you get electrocuted, but if Kyle had a thought I bet it was along the lines of "Why the heck did I do that? Touching an electronic while standing in water." And I don't mean that disrespectfully at all. I say that because that's what I would think. I do everyday. "Why did I say that? That was dumb." "I should never have done that stupid thing..." We are a flawed race. Anybody wonder why people stayed in an evacuated area of New Orleans? Should God be blamed for their error? I think not.
I completely agree with that paragraph - completely. The only problem is that I agree because my reason tells me that there is no 'God'. That is why 'he' shouldn't be blamed. Your reason tells you the same thing, only you can't admit it. Please read that paragraph again and for one moment just allow your mind to be open to the idea that the 'God' you have at some point been convinced to believe in doesn't exist. Doesn't this make all of the tragedies and contradictions of life suddenly make perfect sense?
You actually understand things perfectly, but your religious dogma forces you to repeat myths about Devils and 'Gods' and to finally just throw up your hands and say 'that's why I am not 'God'. If you were to continue to think so rationally along these lines you would soon find yourself free from the scourge that is religion.
Hate crimes against homosexuals or other religions (including but not limited to Islam) and whatever other thing being abused in anyway is not the Christian way. Not for a real Christian.
Wow. If I had a dollar for every time a Christian complains that some other Christian is not a 'real' Christian, then I could probably retire. We atheists hear that excuse so much it is really almost funny. I hate to break it to you, but the Christian way IS to teach intolerance and hatred and discrimination. If you cannot look at the effect that your religion has on non-believers or the gay and lesbian communities that you mention, then you must be blind.
And finally you said
Have some thicker skin. And be open-minded.
It is easier to have a thick skin when you are in the vast majority who are imposing your beliefs on the minority. We (atheists/gay/lesbians) don't have that luxury always and must fight to prevent discrimination. And, while I know that in your mind you are one of the 'open-minded' people, I hate to have to tell you that you are not. As long as you come to a discussion like this with the preconceived notions of 'God' and the 'Devil' and with explanations such as 'that's why I am not God', then I am afraid that you don't qualify as open-minded.
You see, I was a believer once. I was raised in a Baptist church. I was baptized. I know all the dogma, I know all the rituals. I have been where you are. I did open my mind and the result was my dismissal of all the mythology that I had been fed.
There is not a Christian that comes to this site with a truly open mind. Simply being willing to have a civil dialogue with an atheist isn't enough. In my opinion, until you are willing to question the very fundamental essence of what you have been taught as the truth, to question these things yourself using your own good sense and reason, realizing that the answer you find may be that you no longer believe in 'God', only then would I consider you as being of an open-mind.
Are you or any other Christians who visit here willing to do that?
Thanks again for your reply.
Anonymous Said
You asked if we, the survivors of Kyle Lake, will get back on our knees and pray, and I simply answer yes, today and everyday to follow. That is what we call faith, you can call it what you want. Thats all I have to say
Hmmm? Well, I suppose there were some families whose father was killed by Saddam Hussein who continued to think he was a great leader and continued to support him. If that is the definition of 'faith', then I think you might be better off without it.
In response to Alan: First, I believe fully, whole-heartedly in God. Not even you saying that I really don’t believe deep down inside makes me even doubt for a second that God is real. Trying to convince me that my faith is unfounded won’t work. And believe me, I’ve had my share of doubts and questions. And I examined them, I worked through them and I came back with a stronger faith in God than ever.
Secondly, God is in control. He allows things to happen that he doesn’t WANT to happen, because otherwise we wouldn’t learn; we wouldn’t grow; we wouldn’t change. He allows things to happen because he is a gentleman and wouldn’t impose on our personal free will. God didn’t create robots. He wanted people who would come to him of their own volition. He lets us make our own mistakes when we refuse to listen to him or chose to overlook his existence. It’s our own fault – not his – when we make stupid choices. I also believe, like any proper enemy, Satan fights against us to keep us from do what we are here to do (as previously mentioned). Satan is an enemy of God, but since he knows he’ll never defeat God, he chooses to attack God’s people. Humans who are flawed and imperfect and weak and easier to destroy. Yes, God is in control, but God will not violate our free will.
Honestly, in trying to imagine there is no God, it doesn’t “make all the tragedies and contradictions of life suddenly make perfect sense.” Not at all. Suddenly everything becomes so much more blurred. There is no purpose to life at all. No reason for being. No order. Everything is random. Everything is left to chance. Life is chaos. There is no common sense in that answer.
When I said I didn’t know why God allowed certain things, “that’s why I’m not God,” I actually thought it was a good answer. Because so many others have come at you with a million different answers or a million different versions of the same answer. I don’t want you to think I know all the answers. I don’t. I figure if I come in acting like I know everything you’ll call me up on it and get ticked off. And now I see that if I admit that I don’t know everything you’ll still call me on it and get ticked off…so there is no winning. What’s funny about this is, you’re the one who accused me of being closed-minded.
Also, when I talked about “warm fuzzies” people give “God’s way is bigger than ours.” “We can’t know God’s plan.” etc…I did say that I believe those statements 100%. I do believe God’s plan is bigger and that we can’t know his plan. I would never deny that. What I was saying is, those are the answer you’re looking for when you’re questioning why God would allow something so horrific to happen. That’s not what you want to hear. When you brought up the subject here, you didn’t want a million replies of “God’s way is not our way,” did you? You wanted facts. Something more tangible. You wanted a real answer, not a line that basically means “I don’t know.” I can’t give you tangible evidence or hard-core facts like you want. Otherwise it wouldn’t be called “faith.”
Another funny fact: that “thicker skin” comment was meant for the Christians who were wildly offended by your posts. Apparently you were offended too – and I sorry for that. It’s interesting that you put Christians in the “vast majority.” As Christians we think we are the minority since we’re constantly being attacked for our beliefs and our standpoints for no other reason than because we are Christians. I guess we both claim the role as “underdog” in this charade. It’s so easy for the media to find the religious wackos and nut-jobs to come out and say nice and loud that they’re Christians and all other beliefs should be banned or commit hate crimes. Whatever. But a true Christian is a “little Christ.” Basically followers. The actual word implied imitation of Jesus. As a former Baptist, I’m sure you’ve heard the stories of Christ eating with “sinners” – those who were renowned for there blatant sins – prostitutes, witches, sorcerers, thieves, etc. He wanted to be with those people. Not to condemn them, to love them. To forgive them. Not to rub their sin in their faces or to hate them. As Christians who live the actual meaning of the word, that’s how we want to treat people. People we may not even agree with ethically or religiously or whatever. We still want to love them. We still want to befriend them. People who use Christian as a cloak to cover their sin are wrong. And we don’t want to be associated with them, but thanks to the media and people who’d rather hate us than listen to us, we will always be grouped together whether we like it or not. Now we are quickly becoming the minority. Because Christmas is considered a “Christian” holiday, we can’t say Merry Christmas in Wal-mart. Every public school in America can put of signs, posters, and decorations for their Jewish or Islamic holidays or whatever. But at the first word of Christmas or the tradition Christmas story and we are called intolerant and hateful. You can pray to any god in the world except the “Christian God” and then we’re narrow-minded and imposing our beliefs on others. It’s a little hypocritical, don’t you think? In this area, we are definitely the minority.
I agree that our definitions of open-mindedness are distinctly different. I thought that in coming here and being willing to read what you had to say peacefully and tell you what I thing without trying to argue – I thought that was open-minded. But by your definition, I am totally closed-minded. Yeah, definitely. I’ve already done the whole doubting, questioning thing…I’m not interested in going down that road again. Thanks anyway though.
Dana,
I am pressed for time but will respond more fully this weekend.
I have to say though that you need to watch less FoxNews and Jerry Falwell. Playing the poor persecuted Christian who isn't allowed to celebrate Christmas is just ridiculous and laughable. You certainly are NOT open-minded if that is what you think is going on this country. You are obviously very easily led.
Dana,
I am a bit confused at why you came to this site thinking that you could comment without being challenged. Just because you are nice and not openly hostile doesn't mean that I am not going to point out the illogic and hypocrisy of what you say. It's nothing personal, but if it offends you then I suggest you not visit the site.
You said
Secondly, God is in control. He allows things to happen that he doesn’t WANT to happen, because otherwise we wouldn’t learn; we wouldn’t grow; we wouldn’t change.
So what would you think of a parent who let their child burn their hand on a hot stove in order to teach them not to touch it; or who let their child fall down a flight of stairs for the same reason; or who willfully allowed any harm to come to their child just to 'teach them a lesson'. I personally would think they were a horrible parent. The state would no doubt take custody of the children.
It saddens me that you choose to worship a 'sky daddy' who treats you in this way.
He lets us make our own mistakes when we refuse to listen to him or chose to overlook his existence.
How do you explain all the good Christians who suffer? How do you explain the fact that countries where religion is stronger actually have worse living conditions? Seems to me 'God' is punishing believers.
This whole notion of 'free will' explaining how 'God' can be in control and let horrible things happen has to be the lamest excuse I have ever heard. And of course I know that this is the official doctrine. It just amazes me that believers can fall for that crap.
If you have free will and whatever you choose to do is going to determine what happens to you, then why do you need 'God'? Doesn't make a lot of sense? Why waste your time praying when it doesn't make a bit of difference? God's mind is made up. If he changed his mind, it would mean that he was wrong to begin with, which is impossible. You are going to use free will and determine your own fate. You are in control. Get it?
It’s interesting that you put Christians in the “vast majo