Accidental Death and Christian Denial
Since posting a story on this site concerning the electrocution death of the Rev. Kyle Lake in
If there is one underlying message that I am getting from believers it is this: Christians are in complete denial. Denial of what, you ask. Reality, I say, and their own religious dogma.
The whole point of my earlier post was that Christians love to credit 'God' with anything and everything. Sometimes the 'bad' Christians credit natural disasters like hurricanes to 'God' (note that 'God' completely failed to flood the French Quarter when she sent Katrina to punish
I want to take a moment here to make a point, since from their replies I get the impression that most Christian visitors here don't bother to read entire posts.
I don't believe that 'God' killed
This brings us to ‘Free Will’. Over the past week many Christians have tried to explain to me that Kyle had 'free will' and that is why they don't blame 'God' for his death. This totally confuses me. Did Kyle make a choice using his 'free will' that was incorrect and that is why this accident happened? Or did 'God' know that Kyle was going to make this choice (hence, no free will) and she (God) chose to take Kyle via this horrible method? If you let 'God' off the hook for Kyle’s untimely death, then it seems to me that you should quit giving 'God' the credit when you use your 'free will' and something good comes from it.
I have also been told that everything operates within 'God's plan' and that she is in control. Then explain to me how, if this is 'God's plan', that she (God) is not responsible for killing Kyle in such a barbaric and horrible way? Don't you see? You can't have it both ways. Either 'God' knew this was going to happen and let it happen, or 'God' didn't have a thing to do with it. If some book or preacher trys to make this obvious contradiction make sense, please don't surrender your reason too quickly. Because trying to make sense of this tragedy in a 'God's great plan' world is just impossible.
Every day we (humans) make decisions based on reason, experience and using our own judgment. Sometimes these decisions result in tragedies like Kyle's death. Sometimes these decisions result in great success. It is your common sense, your reason and your intelligence that keeps you alive - that helps you to make the right decisions. Whether you get on your knees or say a silent prayer isn't going to make a difference. You are in control of your life, like it or not.
I can only imagine how miserable and confusing it must be to have to second guess every decision that you make wondering if it is 'God's will'. I can also only imagine how confusing it must be for believers to make sense of why 'God' chose to take Kyle in this horrible way. Why does 'God' take someone like Kyle and let someone like Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell prosper? I am here to tell you that there is no confusion, no contradiction, and no reason to get on your knees and pray to the 'God' who let this happen.
Does this sound like evangelizing? Well, it is. Do I feel guilty using this accident to try to bring believers to reason? No, I do not. Christians have always targeted those in a time of weakness and crisis for conversion. If I can use this accident to point out the complete absurdity of your faith and hopefully free a few minds of the chains of religion, then I am willing to try.
I was once like many of you. I was a Southern Baptist. I have been in a baptismal pool. I've heard the words before the pastor put me under. I know how confusing it was to try to connect what my church told me with what I saw to be a completely different and contradictory real world. No horrible event like Kyle's death caused me to de-convert. It was a long and hard road to reason for me. I have been there and I can tell you that the world and life makes so much more sense when you stop believing in fairy tales. It is so much easier to really 'live your life' when you don't deny the obvious; that idea that is in the back of your mind as you think of Kyle's tragedy. There is no 'God'. If there were, then things like this would not happen.
Please don't reprimand me for making this point using Kyle's death. Not unless you are going to reprimand all of the believers who use tragedy, misfortune and death to try to convert others.
Finally I want to mention what I have learned about
From what I have learned, Kyle seems to have been a really nice person and did a lot of good in his short life. Being an atheist, I can give Kyle the credit for this and not feel obligated to credit 'God'. He made choices in his life (used his 'free will' for you Christians) which seem to have been well intentioned. I have learned that Kyle was not aligned with the conservatives of his denomination, Southern Baptists, but honestly I was unaware there were any non-conservative Southern Baptists. His efforts have obviously touched a lot of people and it is regrettable that the irony of his death has gained so much attention. I am truly sorry for the loss of this good person who was trying to make changes in his own life, church and denomination for the better.
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18 Comments:
I can also only imagine how confusing it must be for believers to make sense of why 'God' chose to take Kyle in this horrible way.
I believe the usual rationalization goes something like this: "The ways of gods are inscrutable. How could we possibly understand the working of an omniscient mind? Whatever the gods meant by killing this man, you can be sure they had GOOD reasons, even though it's simply beyond our capability to understand them."
Not very satisfying, is it?
In reply to sportin' life
No, that response can't be very satisfying for believers either. One of my relatives recently used that argument with me saying, "You can't know the mind of 'God'".
I replied that judging from the apparent actions that are a result of 'God's Mind' I would say that 'God' is a psychopath.
You said:
"This brings us to ‘Free Will’. Over the past week many Christians have tried to explain to me that Kyle had 'free will' and that is why they don't blame 'God' for his death. This totally confuses me. Did Kyle make a choice using his 'free will' that was incorrect and that is why this accident happened? Or did 'God' know that Kyle was going to make this choice (hence, no free will) and she (God) chose to take Kyle via this horrible method?
First of all i am sure you know, considering your background, that this is not a new question. The question of Free will and Predestination is a tough one and many a great theologian AND philosopher have grappled with it. Not to mention the Scientist/theologian/philosopher. It is regretably not easily explained at its highest levels, but then again most things in life arent. It is sort of like when explaining evolution, atoms, or relativity, when you use a model or analogy, it breaks down at some point and you have to trust the math. (as you cringe)
There are two views held by Protestants after Calvin:
Calvinism and Arminianism.
(I apologize if reading these is a bore, or if you already know them, but some reading might not. if you are not interested in reading them i suggest you scroll down until you dont see any more numbers. I get to the gist after.)
The first is Calvinism- which has its famous 5 points:
1.Total Depravity-the belief that man is dead in trespasses and sins and totally unable to save himself.
2.Unconditional election- is the belief that in eternity past God chose or elected certain people to obtain salvation.
3.Limited atonement- is the Calvinist teaching that Jesus did not die for the sins of the entire world, but that He instead only died for those that He elected to go to heaven.
4.Irresistible grace- is the doctrine that teaches that God will draw to Himself those whom He elected regardless of their rebellion against Him. It is the belief that man cannot resist the drawing of God to Himself.
5.-Perseverance of the saints, or eternal security, is the doctrine that often attracts people to Calvinism because it is the belief that a true born again Christian cannot lose or give up his salvation because salvation is entirely God's work, not man's.
The second is Arminianism
1.Election based on knowledge,- the belief that God chose those who would be saved in eternity past based on His foreknowledge of those who would respond to and receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Arminianism rejects the concept that God elected anyone for hell.
2.- Unlimited atonement- is the belief that Jesus died on the Cross for all people, that His blood is sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of every man, woman, and child who has ever lived. Thus, all mankind is savable.
3.Natural inability- is the teaching that man cannot save Himself, but that the Holy Spirit must effect the new birth in him. Strict Arminians do not believe that man is totally depraved and condemned as a result of Adam's sin.
4.-Prevenient grace -is the Arminian belief that the prepatory work of the Holy Spirit enables the believer to respond to the Gospel and to cooperate with God in the working out of that person's salvation.
5. Conditional perseverance- is the belief that man can choose to reject God, and therefore lose his salvation, even after he has been born again. Rather than the "once saved always saved" doctrine of the Calvinists, the Arminian believes that you must abide in Christ to be saved, and that you can choose to walk away from God.
Thankfully most Protestants Catholics today believe now what the Church has believed about this all from the 3rd century on. It is a good thing because it is something that we should strive with the uttmost clarity to comprehend. -Ready for this, dont start convulsing... -its both.
Because God is infinite and is not bound by time he knows it all, sees it all, and lets it all happen therefore knew it would happen before it happened. But he also lets us choose. It is sort of like this: as Christians we cling on to "free will" and say that it is proof of God. The apparent wisdom and personality of life down to the smallest level we have discovered has some inate ability to do something out of the ordinary or obey and stay with in a system of predetermined laws. life at its most basic either has the ability to choose, (at some basic, very basic level) or be chosen or determined to do or act or react a certain way. From what I have read, its been a few years so i might be a bit rusty, the laws of Thermodynamics favor disorder to order. The emergence of the special complexity of life still remains a bewildering mystery. In short if you apply Occams Razor, (the idea that all things being equal, the simplest, most elegant explanation tends to be true,)- then it is one of three things. They have wisdom, something else has wisdom and is automating everything, or it is Both. Christians believe its both with life, and both with our will.
So it is that we mean when we say that we have Free will, and we Dont. We cannot simply say "i cease to exsist" and vanish into infinity. But we do have the ability to type and respond to your terrific blogging. Or eat that chocolate chip cookie or raisin oatmeal, even though i know that i am allergic to chocolate, ill eat it anyway, because i want it, God knew what i would choose, he knows the outcome, he holds all things together, and at the same time lets me choose. I could see it as "well if you knew that i was going to eat the damn thing and swell up like a marshmello then why in the hell did you make me in the first place.?" Well for whatever reason, God decided that me exsisting was better than me not exsisting and being able to make that choice to do what would harm me worth the price of that ability to choose.
It is the delicate balance of those two that is most difficult to explain. Clear as mud? the best i can do in thirty minutes. I really dont think that it is that difficult to comprehend at some basic level. We all make choices within a system of rules. Some are beyond our capabilities, some are not. another simple analogy:
I can say that I am choosing my way through life and making decisions, but i can also look back and see a certain order and yes meaning. Order and meanining...I could go into this further but instead of trying to tackle 10 incredibly deep concepts with 2 paragraphs-i will await for your response...if you so choose. (that last bit was cheezy, -apologies)
Z
Seth
I am a follower of Christ and what you have blogged about frustrates me about Christians... so much of their language and analysis of their faith seems so silly. It's almost like feel good language that is being used in traditional crowds. I have been on your same journey too, and right at the time of total questioning I met Kyle Lake. He is the most casual, laid back, full of tact guy in the entire world. His first book dispells to me a lot of the myths of this so called "feel good" language that is thrown around in Christian circles. He presented ideas that are fresh and new, not technical at all. He loves conversations, and dislikes presentations, premanufactured responses, pressure, and especially lists or viewing God and scripture in a "how to, road map" format. Anyway, much of this blog is addressed in his first book, Understanding God's Will. The name sucks, but I think the content will at least let you not be so bummed out that so many Christians talk to hear themselves talking. Please give it a read... ESPECIALLY Appendix B on Romans 8:28, in which he titles this section, "Does Everything Actually Happen For a Reason?" As I have received comfort this week, people have said the dumbest things to me. I know their intentions are true, but Kyle would be saying to them, "No No No... you are missing the point." I believe in God, but I share many of your beliefs about the craziness of the Christian subculture language and their unquestioning stagnant understanding of God. Just a thought - why do you refer to God as a "she" when you hypothetically speak of God? Why would that matter to you? I have no matter about that and I do believe in God. I thought this was interesting.
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Anonymous said
Just a thought - why do you refer to God as a "she" when you hypothetically speak of God? Why would that matter to you?
It doesn't really matter to me. That is one of the reasons I decided to use she. Also, since I don't believe in a 'God' I realized that referring to a 'he' was following most religious traditions, so thought I would break that barrier in my mind while I was at it. And finally, just to tick off the odd wing-nut who might read the post.
Thanks for the reply.
Reply to Seth
Thanks for your informative reply.
I suppose my gut answer to all that you mention is this. What has 'God' got to do with it? For me, the idea that a 'God' (I will use the Christian concept of God here) who is like man (we are made in his image) is somehow defying time and being everywhere at once and is pulling all the strings of physics and nature, is simply redundant and unnecessary. And it doesn't make any sense even disregarding his supposed guide to life (the Bible) which is so convoluted, full of errors and contradictions that it has fueled thousands of sects based on just one character in it.
In very simplistic terms, we are saying the same thing, only I don't put the unnecessary idea of 'God' into my view. I think that we all have an ability to determine our course of action at any given moment. We use our knowledge, our memory of past events and our belief in what is likely to be the outcome of our actions to make a decision (free will) as to what course to take. Why do you need a 'God' to do that, particularly a specific 'God' amongst thousands that are worshiped around the world?
As an atheist, I see a world where, regardless of different religious beliefs and 'Gods', people are able to make decisions as we atheists do based on sound reason and judgment (reality) and most manage to get through life pretty well. Of course some don't. Muslim terrorist tend to blow themselves up due to their devout belief in the teachings of their prophet. The Heavens Gate religion (cult) wiped itself out, at least the true believers, because they rejected reason and basic common sense. This would be an example of poor use of 'free will'.
I guess the point I am trying to make is that the one thing that all religious and non-religious people have in common, is that we have to accept the real world, the world of science and laws of nature, in order to exist. As you point out, we can't just wish ourselves into non-existence. A person would have to find a way to do that using the methods of the real world (gun, jump off a cliff etc).
On the subject of order, any person could look back on their life at any moment and see ‘order’. Every decision we make leads to a new point in life where we will make another decision. Had any one of these decisions been different, then the outcome would have been different. A good example is to take a deck of cards and shuffle them and then turn them face up one at a time. If you look at the order in which they now lie, the odds are astronomical against them being in that order. So at any time in our lives we can look back and say, ‘Wow, if I had not done such and such then such and such would never have happened’.
I know this has gotten somewhat off the point of free will, but to me it seems a shame that so many people have to spend so much time and effort, as you obviously have, to try to reconcile the simple facts of our existence with often contradictory religious teachings. Clear as mud, as you put it.
From the point of view of a religious person, the reasons for these events (or life in general) will never be fully understood or brought into compliance with their religious doctrines. It is really nice to be an unbeliever because it frees my mind and my use of my time (not to mention free will) to try to enjoy life more and better myself and maybe even the world. That is not to say that I don't enjoy discussing these things, but I don't lay awake at night worrying about them either.
...honestly I was unaware there were any non-conservative Southern Baptists.
LOL! I was raised RCC and learned that people are people regardless of their professed faith.
The first Southern Baptists I ever met were the family & some friends of my 14 yo girl friend (I was 16) and, boy Howdy!, could they put the brews & booze away! I only had to spend an hour or so at Mass on Sunday whilst these folk took all of 3 or 4 hours, including a break for lunch or what not. I'll never forget the Sunday m'girl stayed home "sick" . . . uh, but I digress.
People are people, regardless of their faith or lack-there-of. I've met a couple of atheistic folk recently with whom I just ain't crazy 'nuff to hang either. Folk's faith has got very little to do with how "good" they are, as your discovery 'bout the late Kyle exhibits.
It's the Legislation into Law of religious beliefs that I vigorously denounce and gladly ridicule and it is such for which I have simple ZERO tolerance.
This was a nice cathartic post Alan. I enjoyed it.
You can't know the mind of 'God'".
How do the Xians know she has a plan, then?
Michael Bains said,
It's the Legislation into Law of religious beliefs that I vigorously denounce and gladly ridicule and it is such for which I have simple ZERO tolerance.
That is one of the main reasons I do this blog and am so vocal about my (lack of) belief. Thanks for the nice comments also.
Rockstar said...
You can't know the mind of 'God'".
How do the Xians know she has a plan, then?
Evidently, some make believe characters in a bunch of stories got messages from her: Burning bushes. Stone tablets. Dreams. Women turning into pillars of salt. It really makes sense when you think about it.
Hey,
I must admit I read your blog with a mixture of horror and pleasure. At first, I thought it was in awfully bad taste to use the story of a man's death to work against the goal he had pursued in life. In fact, I still think that.
However, I appreciate that you did acknowledge him as a fellow person and the post seemed to redeem itself to some degree.
It's interesting to come across this post after just battling cancer all summer. I've never been sicker or in more excruciating agony. I've also never been more sure of God's presence and goodness.
Don't get me wrong. My cancer was destroying my body, threatening my life, and causing incredible grief to my wife, kids, and parents (I'm only 26 and in great health otherwise so it was a real shock). That same cancer, by attempting to take my life (I realize this is giving personality to a non-entity but it's helpful for writing purposes), taught me to appreciate life more fully. By causing pain and grief I learned more fully how to comfort and heal others who are hurting.
We can talk more, but I guess if I had to sum my thoughts up, I'd simply say that if my existence was all about myself then there really would be no point to my suffering and the world would be truly and utterly capricious. Somehow, your passion leads me to believe that even though you don't believe in God you know that a fulfilling life can't be about oneself. Even though the universe itself will eventually collapse into its pre-Big Bang state and all memory of humanity will evaporate, part of being human is knowing that I live to DO something and to BE someone and that in doing and being I am LIVING and GROWING and in a way partaking of something transcendant...GROWTH and CHANGE and KNOWLEDGE of my existence and its corollary that other exist and so deserve my respect.
I hope you always seek the truth because I am confident that you will find it if you seek it wholeheartedly and that it will set you free in the way that it set me free from despair in the face of cancer.
Take care man and keep blogging.
:-)
J
I attend UBC and Baylor just to get that out of the way. Kyle was a great man, and i honestly dont understand why he had to pass away, or why i had to be there to witness it, but i know that he would want his death to show us that life is worth living to the fullest. I dont know why everyone has to argue over all of this. Kyle ended every sermon saying "Embrace Beauty, Love God, and Live life to the fullest" , he did that, and I hope everyone who is posting on here can at least do 2 of those 3. Check out www.Ubcwaco.org if you want to find out who kyle was and what he believed. I can find comfort in at least knowing that Kyle is in heaven right now, a much better place than this jacked up earth we call home.
Steven Cutbirth
In Reply to StAndrewsBlogger
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You didn't mention in your response if you had 'won' your battle with cancer. I was just curious and hope that you do get on top of it.
In reply, I would say that I, and most atheists I know, understand that a personal belief in 'God' or a higher power can and does provide comfort to those in a time of sickness or hopelessness. If that were the only face of faith that we had to face in this world, then I wouldn't need to have this blog.
Unfortunately, when 'God' and faith become less personal and more about power, prophecy, politics and proselytizing, then we (non-believers) have to step forward to defend ourselves.
In my own country, as I am sure you are aware, we are fighting a battle against fundaMentalist Christians who have very nearly taken over our government. The face of faith that I see daily, and on this blog, is very different than the comfort and solace that you found through your faith.
I thought it was in awfully bad taste to use the story of a man's death to work against the goal he had pursued in life.
I wouldn't disagree with you here, but I would point out that Christians are notorious for doing this same thing. There are many conversion lies told about life-long atheists who lived their lives trying to forward the cause of reason. Einstein, who was an atheist, has one of his quotes in which he mentions 'God' used to suggest he was a believer. There are many other examples. I believe that I pointed out in the post that I was merely doing what Christians do and that was the larger point of my post.
Another point of the post was to simply try to understand how believers continue to believe in the face of a horror like the one in Waco. This level of denial is unknown to me, but my curiosity about belief and its power to control reason is still peaked.
I think we are in complete agreement about a larger purpose in life than one's self. The only difference seems to be that I don't require a supernatural 'God' to seek the same fulfillment, growth and knowledge that you do. I suppose my idea of eternity is the things you do in your life which benefit others and are therefore not tied to your own mortality.
Again, if 'God' were only the internal and personal source of inspiration for believers to live a good life (a life that is also considered 'good' from a secular perspective) and was not used as a wedge or a club to subjugate or divide humanity, then I don't think non-believers would have a problem with faith and belief in 'God'.
I hope you always seek the truth because I am confident that you will find it if you seek it wholeheartedly and that it will set you free in the way that it set me free from despair in the face of cancer.
I can say in all honesty as a former believer, that I have now found 'my' truth that set me free. I don't doubt that you also found your 'truth' in your time of need. We just happen to have found differing 'truths'.
Good luck and I hope to see more of your comments.
Who better to explain this to you than Kyle himself. Please follow the link.
I'm sorry that you've given up on God. Just know that God hasn't given up on you.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/144/24.0.html
Even though you are probably never going to visit this site again Erin, I am replying to your message. The text of your message indicates to me that you are most likely a hit-and-run visitor.
"Disappointment, failure, and suffering are simply facts of life. But for those who are actively following God, He can turn disappointment and tragedy into new life.".
This is the final sentence of the passage from the book by Kyle Lake that you posted. I had already read this as someone else, perhaps you, had posted it here.
I read this, and as a non-Christian, didn't really find anything very revealing from it. The constant comparisons of scriptural interpretation and biblical context were completely boring to me. Even when he tries to bring the subject to a secular viewpoint, I found nothing in his text that I didn't already know.
The last sentence that I quoted above is unbelievably arrogant in it's assertion that you have to be following 'God' to make some good come from a tragedy. Non-believers are world experts at persistence and overcoming obstacles. We know how to recover from the 'shock and awe' that life throws at us. And we don't need 'God' to do this. We don't have that comfort blanket promise of eternal life to allow us to dismiss tragedy as part of 'God's Plan'.
So I am sorry to tell you that what you find obviously so inspirational from Kyle’s writings, I found mundane, rather boring, common sense and in some ways very elitist and insulting.
apparently the UBC was a church composed of 'dropouts' who were sick of what other religions have had to offer. a longtime friend of mine (and former baylor prof) is a member of the church and had the traumatic experience of being at the sermon when this happened; he describes the church as being very unconventional.
christianity is very weird in texas. i live in santa monica now, where just about anything goes, but in texas, and at baylor, i became a staunch agnostic in reaction to the general state of religious practice and discourse. i imagine this is one church that may have had a remote chance of getting me to sit still for an hour or so on a sunday morning.
if we only have five senses with which to perceive, and if we only use 10% of our incredible brains to make sense of things, how on earth can anyone even begin to approach this intellectually? how can anyone understand god (or whatever else there "is")? i sure can't. the only reaction i'm having to this is pure horror and the thought that if there is a god, fuck him for letting things like this happen.
there, so i'm going to hell. i'm sorry, but this guy left behind three lovely little kids and a young wife (who will at least have a lot of support and comfort). i can't make sense of the suffering. i just can't.
lowflyin' lolana
Jesus was just very, very pissed off at Kyle. Just goes to show you, don't piss off Jesus.
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