Atheists Are Everywhere, Man. Atheists Are Everywhere
If you are not familiar with the Johnny Cash Song which inspired the title of this post, then you may want to give this a listen.
My wife and I just returned from an event in
Of the many things I learned about Bob over the course of the weekend, I will share a few: Bob was a pioneering disc-jockey in the early days of rock and roll top 40 radio. He is a member of MENSA. He uses his razor sharp wit, sarcasm, sense of irony and humor to great effect while he spreads the word of reason and healthy doubt. He is married to his beautiful wife of 43 years and behaves as if he has just met her and is still in the process of wooing her (this is a good thing). Bob is also an accomplished artist in multiple disciplines. Bob is adding yet another degree to his already impressive collection; he still realizes there is more to learn. Bob is, in short, who I want to be when I am 73 years old.
Bob was indeed not the only atheist I met this weekend. No less than three others were within my immediate vicinity. And I must point out that I do not actively canvas my fellows at events to discover their beliefs. Bob and I discovered our shared lack of belief by complete coincidence. And I must further point out that I was in
You may wonder why the fact that I met a few atheists on a business trip would warrant an entire blog entry. If you are an atheist in the South, you probably understand my enthusiastic reaction. If you are a believer, particularly a Christian in the
Imagine that you live in country dominated by a superstitious belief (religion) that does not conform to your view of the 'real' world. Think of
Atheists are, in my opinion, are at the stage that gay and lesbian Americans were 20 or 30 years ago. We are just starting to make ourselves known. We are just coming out of the closet. The virtual world in which you are now visiting has certainly given strength, encouragement and support for those of us who simply believe in one less 'God' than most Americans. We are starting dialogues with those who agree with our world view and those who do not, but are curious and willing to listen and not judge.
So if you are a believer and you happen to hear someone in public mention that they are an atheist, don't gasp in horror or run the other way. Don't tell them that they are going to Hell. Talk to them. Ask them those questions that may trouble you about atheism (What DO you believe? How can you be happy without 'God'? Aren't you afraid to die and go to Hell?). You will probably find a willing and eager fellow human being ready to answer your questions and it might just be my new friend Bob.
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31 Comments:
Several days ago, I read a blog or something about the impossibility of the existence of the biblical god because he would contradict himself. It was acutally a pretty good argument. Was that your writing?
This is an interesting post. I have talked to several atheist folks and I can get along with them.
Shawn,
That wasn't my post but I have heard that argument also. It is a bit deep and unnecessary in my case, but it is interesting. Here is a link to the argument:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Sparta/1019/AFE/God_Contradiction.htm
Shawn said
This is an interesting post. I have talked to several atheist folks and I can get along with them.
In all honesty and humility (eehmmmm), atheists are generally wonderful people obsessed with life as opposed to death. You should get to know more of them but remember, if you meet a rude or 'bad' one, then they aren't a 'true' atheist! (A little joke there)
Did you know that atheists don't exist? I didn't think so, but it's true: It is impossible to be an atheist. Try reading God Doesn't Believe in Atheists by Ray Comfort.
Geez Darth, Perhaps you should try to read more. Your 18 years old and telling me and millions of other atheists that we don't exist and advertising some book which you probably have not read. In the process you have lowered the average I.Q. of those who post on this site by 10 points.
You have 24 hours to say something mildly intelligent or else your post will be sent to the nether reaches of the Blogosphere.
Here's how atheists can't exist:
To say "There is no God" is an absolute statement. To make an absolute statement, you need absolute knowledge.
For example, "There is no gold in China" is an absolute statement. In order to know that is true, one must know the contents of every piece of jewelry, the intimate details of peoples' fillings, what is under every rock, literally everything about China.
To say "There IS gold in China" all I need is one fleck of gold in China to be correct.
Now, an atheist is one who denies the existence of God. "There is no God" is an absolute statement. Since God would exist in all places, you would need absolute knowledge of everything in the universe to deny his existence. I highly doubt anyone can say they have absolute knowlege.
Since you don't know everything, you are forced to say, "With the limited knowledge I have at my disposal, I BELIEVE there is no God." That means you aren't an atheist, you're an agnostic.
Just to clarify here: An atheist is a person who harbours no beliefs in deities, based on the fact that no proof exists pertaining to the existence of any.
The "There is no gold in China" analogy is not a good one, since we have plenty of proof to debunk the above-said argument. Try this:
A person tells me fairies exist. Why? Because I can't prove fairies don't exist.
Same thing with Gods. There's just no proof. Should we take the absence of proof to negate a god a validated truth?
Regards
The Beast
"With my limited knowledge at my disposal, I believe there are no deities, fairies, elves, snowapes, UFOs, ETs.......etc, etc, etc".
Does this argument mean that if I do not agree with all of the above, I cease to exist?
Think first, darth, before you write.
Darth,
That response just barely qualified as mildly intelligent so I am still on the fence about deleting your comments as spam, particularly since your tired old argument was just cut-and-paste from your book.
If the idea that there are millions of atheists living happy productive lives without your 'God' (or any other) bothers you, then you need to do some research and open your mind a bit before trying to 'destroy' them with your quotes from lame books.
As Beast has pointed out, you don't even understand the definition of 'atheist'. I think he explained it quite well so I won't waste my time here repeating what he said.
You are more than welcome to comment here, but quoting out of a book that you read to people who are a little beyond such simplistic arguments is going to be a waste of your time.
I realize (assuming you are a good church going young man) you think that is way you talk (preach) to people. I hate to break it to you, but you actually have to say something meaningful around here. Unlike at church, here we point out the illogical and absurd aspects of what is 'preached' to us. Don't you wish you could do that in church?
If you would like more reading material, I can point you to some good books that might expand your outlook a bit.
BTW, when I was your age I believed and said all the same 'stuff' that you have said thus far. So don't be so sure that you won't end up like me one day .... if you are lucky!
"Just to clarify here: An atheist is a person who harbours no beliefs in deities, based on the fact that no proof exists pertaining to the existence of any."
You do not know that there is no proof, though. As I said, you do not have complete knowledge of the universe. You can say, "I don't think there is a God, but I really don't know."
"A person tells me fairies exist. Why? Because I can't prove fairies don't exist.
Same thing with Gods. There's just no proof. Should we take the absence of proof to negate a god a validated truth?"
Well that person is entitled to believe in fairies, if they so wish. There's a difference with fairies, though, since fairies are a legend that originated from Ireland (Correct me if I'm wrong) and fairies aren't greatly heard of in other cultures. There is no such thing as an atheist culture, however.
"'With my limited knowledge at my disposal, I believe there are no deities, fairies, elves, snowapes, UFOs, ETs.......etc, etc, etc.'
Does this argument mean that if I do not agree with all of the above, I cease to exist?"
I'm not saying that people who claim atheism don't exist. Don't be stupid. >=(
I'm saying that it is impossible to be an atheist. The thinking mind must admit the possibility of a God, even if they choose not to believe it.
"That response just barely qualified as mildly intelligent so I am still on the fence about deleting your comments as spam, particularly since your tired old argument was just cut-and-paste from your book."
By deleting my post you would rob yourself of the chance to prove your intellectual might. XD
I didn't cut & paste that, it's paraphrased from what I remember. By the way, Ray Comfort, the author of the book, sent this to someone in authority with American Atheists (Can't remember the name of the woman) and she agreed with him.
"If the idea that there are millions of atheists living happy productive lives without your 'God' (or any other) bothers you, then you need to do some research and open your mind a bit before trying to 'destroy' them with your quotes from lame books."
If it's such a lame book, then why did Ray Comfort get invited to debate with Ron Barrier at the atheist convention a few years ago?
I realize (assuming you are a good church going young man) you think that is way you talk (preach) to people. I hate to break it to you, but you actually have to say something meaningful around here. Unlike at church, here we point out the illogical and absurd aspects of what is 'preached' to us. Don't you wish you could do that in church?
This is exactly why you are mistaken. You think I might be a "good" person. A "good church going young man" as you said. But this is why you have no conception of what Christians believe. I'm sure you think you are a good person too, and society might even agree. But the way to see if you are a good person is to test yourself:
Have you ever told a lie? When someone tells you lies, you call them a liar, right? Well that makes you a liar.
Have you ever stolen anything? Then you are a thief.
When judging someone, it is important to look at their intentions rather than their deeds. Jesus said that if you lust after a woman, you're committing adultery in your heart.
With only three of the ten commandments, we can see that you, me, and everyone else is a lying thieving, adulterer-at-heart. Would you say that a lying, thieving, adulterer is a "good person"? I hope not.
It doesn't matter how many "good things" you do, you are still a lying, thieving, adulterer. If you're in a court room convicted of theft, would you say "Judge, I know stealing is wrong. But I give money to charity, so can you let me off the hook?" The Judge would say, "You idiot, I don't care how much charity you give. That has absolutely nothing to do with your crime!"
I don't care if you're an atheist, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Catholic, a Protestant, or a cultist. You are not a good person, regardless. Thousands of people say they are Christians. I doubt 1% of them are for real.
(assuming you are a good church going young man)
I haven't even been to a church building more than ten times in my life, from what I remember. About half of those were Catholic, so they don't even count.
BTW, when I was your age I believed and said all the same 'stuff' that you have said thus far.
Oh really? You knew the Lord?
"Atheists are, in my opinion, are at the stage that gay and lesbian Americans were 20 or 30 years ago."
Prezactly. Which is why we need to organize and get proactive.
I think vjack may have started something big.
this is about as painful to read as my first couple of comments on your other post, Alan
Darth
For you to refer to someone else as 'stupid' is really the height of irony.
You are using the lamest arguments against atheism obviously taken almost verbatim from a man who is a joke amongst atheists. We have all seen 'The Way of the Master' tapes online. They are laughable. Are you a Kirk Cameron fan or something?
I would suggest that if you wish to have an intelligent conversation with atheists that you improve your base of knowledge. Otherwise you are going to continue to make a fool of yourself.
I won't waste a lot of time on this since I do have intelligent and enjoyable dialogues to get to.
Darth said
You do not know that there is no proof, though. As I said, you do not have complete knowledge of the universe. You can say, "I don't think there is a God, but I really don't know."
I am surprised that you put yourself into that trap so easily. Turn this flawed argument on yourself. You do not have 'complete knowledge' either, therefore it is impossible for you to be a Christian, it is impossible for you to say that 'God' exist. By this ridiculous logic, everyone on the planet is an agnostic.
Darth Said
By the way, Ray Comfort, the author of the book, sent this to someone in authority with American Atheists (Can't remember the name of the woman) and she agreed with him.
Bullshit. Back it up or don't post it.
Darth Said
If it's such a lame book, then why did Ray Comfort get invited to debate with Ron Barrier at the atheist convention a few years ago?
They probably chose him because his arguments are so lame. We atheists do need comic relief too you know. We love the part where he 'refutes' evolution with a banana. That is a laugh riot. Sorry, I am sure you were planning to use that one on us soon.
I will skip answering any of the other almost verbatim quotes from his books and videos.
Darth Said
I haven't even been to a church building more than ten times in my life, from what I remember. About half of those were Catholic, so they don't even count.
Now this is the first thing you have said that interests me. First, why does Catholicism not count? All modern Christian religions descend from Catholicism, or didn't you know that? If you have only been to a Protestant church a half dozen times, then why would you espouse all of this really bad rhetoric like some young Kirk Cameron wannabe? Are you being honest here, Darth?
I am being honest when I implore you to get better reading material. You don't want to open yourself up to ridicule by using the methods of Ray Comfort and K.C. How many books have you read by atheist authors? How can you judge our position if you haven't explored it? It might be a better fit for you.
Darth Said
Oh really? You knew the Lord?
Oh yeah. I knew the Lord. I am obviously better qualified than you to defend faith based on the thousands of times I have attended church and Sunday school. I was raised on the stuff, Darth.
I was 'saved' when I was six or seven (my mom would know which, I can't remember), was baptized, and sang in the youth choir ... the whole nine yards.
That is why it is pretty ridiculous for you to come here expecting to blow us away with your brilliant observation that atheists can't exist. I get the feeling from you post and your surprise that an atheist could have been a believer once, that you have very limited knowledge about atheism. Actually, I am sure of it. So I am going to be generous and share some links to open your mind a bit.
This site has hundreds of deconversion stories from 'true believers' who have rejected Christianity. The link takes you directly to the deconversion stories. If you take the time to read some, you will discover that the choice to stop believing in fairy tales and embrace reality did not come easily or without a cost to most of us.
http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showforum=5
I chose to take this half-hour to reply in the hopes that you might become someone more interesting to have a dialogue with. If you will start talking from your own experience and stop quoting from some book (be it the bible or Ray Comfort), I think you will find the conversation will get much more interesting.
Also, feel free to ask me any questions about atheism or anything else. That is why I created this site: To try to put a human face on Atheism for those who haven't ever had a dialogue with an atheist.
I am surprised that you put yourself into that trap so easily. Turn this flawed argument on yourself. You do not have 'complete knowledge' either, therefore it is impossible for you to be a Christian, it is impossible for you to say that 'God' exist. By this ridiculous logic, everyone on the planet is an agnostic.
You really don't listen to my examples, do you? To say that something absolutely does not exist, you need absolute knowledge. That's why you can't say "There is no gold in China." However, to say that something does exist is easy. I only need one fleck of gold in China to say that it exists.
Bullshit. Back it up or don't post it.
I'll have to get ahold of a copy of the book to do that.
We love the part where he 'refutes' evolution with a banana. That is a laugh riot.
I've always thought so too. XD
Now this is the first thing you have said that interests me. First, why does Catholicism not count? All modern Christian religions descend from Catholicism, or didn't you know that?
Actually, the Catholic church decended from the original Christian church. Later, the Protestants seperated from the Catholic church. I've studied Catholic doctrine, and it's nothing but hypocritical. By the Catholic catechism, I should technically be excommunicated. Which I wouldn't mind.
If you have only been to a Protestant church a half dozen times, then why would you espouse all of this really bad rhetoric like some young Kirk Cameron wannabe? Are you being honest here, Darth?
The number of times I've been to a church is irrelavent. None of the churches in my area teach biblically, so I avoid them. Yes, I'm being honest. If I wasn't, I'd be breaking the ninth commandment.
How many books have you read by atheist authors? How can you judge our position if you haven't explored it? It might be a better fit for you.
I haven't been a Christian all my life. My parents are openly anti-Christian, in fact. Before I became a Christian, I was very interested in evolution and other such things. But there was always something about it that didn't make sense, which I realize now is because evolution is merely a fallacy. Darwin himself said that.
Oh yeah. I knew the Lord.
Then you admit you are conciously in rebellion against His will.
I am obviously better qualified than you to defend faith based on the thousands of times I have attended church and Sunday school. I was raised on the stuff, Darth.
It doesn't matter how many times you heard the words of truth if you didn't listen. There are millions of people who think they are Christians, but they aren't.
I was 'saved' when I was six or seven (my mom would know which, I can't remember), was baptized, and sang in the youth choir ... the whole nine yards.
Yes, when you were little I'm sure you made a "decision for Jesus." Am I right? Someone told you that if you "let Jesus into your heart, He'll make you so happy" or some crap. "God has a wonderful plan for your life." People who preach that message are fools and do not understand biblical teachings.
That is why it is pretty ridiculous for you to come here expecting to blow us away with your brilliant observation that atheists can't exist.
Actually, I didn't expect to blow anyone away. I merely found God Doesn't Believe in Atheists to be a good book.
I get the feeling from you post and your surprise that an atheist could have been a believer once, that you have very limited knowledge about atheism.
I wasn't surprised that you were a "believer."
This site has hundreds of deconversion stories from 'true believers' who have rejected Christianity.
I don't need to even bother going to the site, I know enough people who fit that description. I'll check it out anyway, though.
you will discover that the choice to stop believing in fairy tales and embrace reality did not come easily or without a cost to most of us.
There will be a heavy cost you'll pay...
If you will start talking from your own experience and stop quoting from some book (be it the bible or Ray Comfort), I think you will find the conversation will get much more interesting.
I'm glad you brought up "experiences."
Imagine a young boy is with his father in the living room. His father points to the heater and says, "Don't touch that, it's hot. You'll burn yourself." Father leaves the boy to play by himself. The boy wonders, "I know father said the heater is hot, and I suppose I believe him. But I wonder if it really is..." and he reaches out and touches it. Naturally, he burns his hand. He has moved out of the realm of Belief and moved into the realm of Experience.
A man walks into the room and says, "Son, I've got a degree in studying heaters. I haven't touched one yet, but scientific studies have told me that that heater is not hot." The boy will say, "I don't care how much knowledge you think you have mister, because I KNOW the heater is hot!"
That is why I am a Christian. If it weren't for my conversion, I don't think I'd even be alive right now, and neither would several of my family members. I have two friends who can say the same thing. One of them was cured of clinical depression, something that medical science has not yet found a cure for.
Also, feel free to ask me any questions about atheism or anything else.
Why do you believe in evolution when Darwin said it was impossible?
Darth, get your head out of your ass will you ...
...and I mean that in the nicest way.
I believe that is why you can't seem to get the message about what atheism means. You are stuck on some stupid notion put into your head by some crack-pot book you read. Give it up my little fundie friend. Nothing in that silly book is going to work in the 'real' world, particularly on a site with readers (and authors) as intelligent as this one ... ehmmm.
So I will try one more time. To be an atheist simply means that you do not hold a belief in God. Do you hold a belief in Allah? No? That is impossible because you don't have infinite knowledge ... blah, blah, blah. See how stupid that argument is. Are YOU listening?
Jeez kid. If you go around your school or work spouting this crap, I am sure you are going to find making friends pretty hard. Or do you only hang out with others like yourself?
Darth said
I've studied Catholic doctrine, and it's nothing but hypocritical.
Why? What doctrine do you follow now? Why your current doctrine not hypocritical and Catholocism is?
Darth Said
None of the churches in my area teach biblically, so I avoid them.
What churches specifically? What denominations? If not biblically, how do they teach? What book do they use?
Darth Said
My parents are openly anti-Christian, in fact.
How so? Is it because they don't believe in the specifics that you do? Are they atheists? From the tone and content of your replies so far, I get the feeling you are into some really narrow-minded fundie brand of Christianity. Are they 'anti-christian' perhaps because their son has become a little fundaMentalist robot who constantly parrots quotes from some fundie book? I am just guessing here, fill me in.
Darth Said
That is why I am a Christian. If it weren't for my conversion, I don't think I'd even be alive right now, and neither would several of my family members.
Care to elaborate? I enjoy hearing about what events get people, particularly someone as young as yourself, into fundaMental Christianity or cults. Not that I enjoy hearing about bad things happening to people. I just find it interesting that people tend to get involved with fundaMentalist groups at low points in their lives or in a time of crisis.
Darth Said
One of them was cured of clinical depression,
Bullshit. There is a history of clinical depression in my family and religion ain't cured it yet kid. But the drugs sure do help. I hope you aren't ignoring a health problem waiting for 'God' to cure it. That's dangerous and stupid.
I will save you the embarrassment of answering that last question.
Darth, Darth, Darth. What are we going to do with you? I am trying to help you out here my boy. Get with the program. Put that damn book away and just reply with your own thoughts, experiences and/or feelings. And that doesn't mean quoting some passage from a stupid book. It means something from YOUR real life or experience.
You really do need to visit that site I gave you now that I am convinced you are into some fundie shit. Read about the damage that narrow-minded religious bigotry does to people's lives. If there is a common theme among the deconversion stories of fundamentalist it is the regret that the victims have over the lost years of their lives. You are too young to be such a little fundie prick, no offense. You don't want to live that life.
Do you hold a belief in Allah? No? That is impossible because you don't have infinite knowledge ...
If my God is real, then Allah cannot exist. They are exclusive deities.
Jeez kid. If you go around your school or work spouting this crap, I am sure you are going to find making friends pretty hard. Or do you only hang out with others like yourself?
I have many friends. Several are Christian, who share the same views I do. Many others are not, but it hasn't stopped them from being my friends.
Why? What doctrine do you follow now? Why your current doctrine not hypocritical and Catholocism is?
Direct-from-the-bible doctrine. Catholics care more for their own catechisms and the pope than they do the bible. I've read some of the Catholic catechisms, their against biblical teachings.
What churches specifically? What denominations? If not biblically, how do they teach? What book do they use?
Catholic, in the area I live now. Before I moved, there were Lutheran, Methodist, and some more I can't remember. They claim to use the bible, but they do not follow through with it. Basically, they water it down.
How so? Is it because they don't believe in the specifics that you do?
They're the kind of people that even non-Christians find revolting. They lie, steal, commit adultery on eachother, drink, use illegal drugs, waste their money on junk instead of feeding their children, physically abuse thier children, etc. Basically, they're bastards.
Care to elaborate?
I would have killed them.
There is a history of clinical depression in my family and religion ain't cured it yet kid.
There is a history of mental problems and depression in his family too. His parents and siblings are all in mental institutions. "Religion" can't cure anything. Religion is merely man's attempts to get right with God. There are many religions, but only one Christ. So many people expect religion to fulfill them, but they're being foolish in trying.
I hope you aren't ignoring a health problem waiting for 'God' to cure it. That's dangerous and stupid.
Yes, that would be stupid. Christians don't merely sit back and expect God to do everything for them. God is sovereign, and is completely justified in ignoring them, if He so wishes. We can ask Him to help, but He doesn't have to say yes.
Put that damn book away and just reply with your own thoughts, experiences and/or feelings. And that doesn't mean quoting some passage from a stupid book. It means something from YOUR real life or experience.
The only thing I quoted was the way atheists don't exist. Unless it was an accident, I've been typing my own responses this whole time.
You really do need to visit that site I gave you now that I am convinced you are into some fundie shit.
I did visit it. I found it pathetic. From what I read, it was just people complaining because they didn't get "fulfillment" or "happiness" from God. The fools never realized that Christ said Christians would be persecuted for His name, not recieve "fulfillment."
You don't want to live that life.
At least I'll continue to live. That's much better than happiness in this short life.
Reply to Darth
I have to leave for a trip this weekend and probably won't have the time to that I need to devote to your post. Please check back at your usual time on Monday and I should have something up. I'm glad you didn't kill your parents by the way.
So am I.
Reply to Darth
I am still curious as to why you have gone the route of literalist christian (infallible bible) if you didn't grow up in this type of environment. I can only assume that someone from outside your immediate family influenced you. Do you care to elaborate on why you have chosen this hard-line interpretation of Christianity and/or why it appeals to you more than a moderate view? Am I wrong in assuming this is how you believe? I make the assumption based on your replies and comments such as 'watered down' and 'Direct-from-the-bible'.
If you are going to take the Bible literally then you should know that calling others 'fools' is directly admonished in the scriptures. It makes you look pretty hypocritical when you continually refer to people in this way. It is also rather elitist that you use the word 'even' when referring to the actions of your parents. They're the kind of people that even non-Christians find revolting. Christians don't have any special moral exclusivity. In my life’s experience, which is twice what your experience is, I find non-Christians generally to have higher personal moral standards than Christians.
I would agree with you on Catholicism. As a Christian and now an atheist I always found it funny that each new pope was thought to be infallible. How dumb is that! One pope could make a ruling (or whatever they call it) and then next could come along and make an opposite ruling, and they both would be absolutely right according to the Catholic Church. How can contradictory positions both be absolutely correct and infallible?
But, I must point out, that if you are going to take the Bible literally, you are going to have that same problem because the Bible is full of contradictions. There is a great bumper sticker that says, "Read the Bible: Become an Atheist". If you try to read the bible as literal and infallible, then you are going to be in for a rude surprise. There is some horrible stuff in there that 'God' condoned which any decent human being would find atrocious. Most believers just try to pretend those parts don't exist or try to excuse them. But if you are going to take it word-for-word literal, then there can be no excuses made. It says what it means and means what it says.
That is why I think you are letting yourself in for a hard time by trying to be so hard-line in your beliefs. This of course assumes that you aren't looking for a hard-time. If you have a martyr complex, which your comment that Christians should expect to be persecuted seems to indicate, then you are probably going about things correctly. You are certainly going to be criticized and condemned by most decent and moderate people, religious or otherwise, if you are a fundamentalist Christian.
Christians don't merely sit back and expect God to do everything for them. God is sovereign, and is completely justified in ignoring them, if He so wishes. We can ask Him to help, but He doesn't have to say yes.
So why bother asking? To put it rather bluntly, shit don't get done while you're on your knees. You have to get up and actually do it. To an atheist that is rather obvious and the time that is spent on prayer and religious ritual by believers is just a waste of time. If 'God' already knows what is in your mind and has already made up his mind to what he is going to do, then prayer is just totally irrelevant isn't it?
You seem to really get offended, or at least react with surprise, when confronted with the fact that people would choose to leave Christianity (like I did) or that we have heard all the arguments and just don't believe them. Your initial post about atheist not being able to exist is a prime example. Your comment about the ex-Christian site and the deconversion stories are the same. I have read many of those stories and find them heartbreaking, particularly the ones dealing with former fundamentalist. How is it that you can ignore the obvious pain and suffering that fundamentalist Christianity has caused (and is causing) and I (an evil atheist) am the compassionate one? Does that perhaps tell you something about where your head (or heart) is right now?
There is life beyond a bad family or childhood without having to resort to extreme religious beliefs. I was sincere when I told you that you didn't want to live that life. Your reply to that comment is so wrong. Happiness is ALL that is important in this short life. Setting yourself up to live a life of 'persecution', ridicule, intolerance and hatred for the empty promise of a better 'afterlife' is the worst choice you could make.
I can only assume that someone from outside your immediate family influenced you.
My friend with depression is the one who converted me. I guess I don't really know how to answer you other than that.
If you are going to take the Bible literally then you should know that calling others 'fools' is directly admonished in the scriptures.
"The fool has said in his heart, there is no God."
That's in the Psalms. There are many other examples of foolishness, and it's called foolishness in the bible.
It is also rather elitist that you use the word 'even' when referring to the actions of your parents.
I said that because Christians find certain things (homosexuality, abortion, etc.) to be wrong, where non-Christians don't necessarily care. I meant to say that everyone would hate those kind of people, regardless. I wasn't trying to sound like an elitist, so I'm sorry if I did.
How dumb is that! One pope could make a ruling (or whatever they call it) and then next could come along and make an opposite ruling, and they both would be absolutely right according to the Catholic Church.
Pshaw, that's not even the worst of it! I recently found that they used to have Mass in entirely Latin, as a rule! I still am trying to figure out the logic in that. XD
the Bible is full of contradictions.
Which contradictions are these you speak of?
There is a great bumper sticker that says, "Read the Bible: Become an Atheist".
I have a great bumper sticker that says, "National Atheist Day April 1st".
If you have a martyr complex, which your comment that Christians should expect to be persecuted seems to indicate,
What do you mean by "martyr complex"?
I hope you know I don't mean that Christians should go out looking for persecution, but that they should expect it.
To an atheist that is rather obvious and the time that is spent on prayer and religious ritual by believers is just a waste of time. If 'God' already knows what is in your mind and has already made up his mind to what he is going to do, then prayer is just totally irrelevant isn't it?
Other than baptism, I don't know of any religious rituals that Christians even have (Unless maybe you count breaking bread and drinking wine [the body and blood of Christ]).
Although God does already know what He'll do, He wants us to communicate with Him. By asking Him, we will recieve the things we need. But if we just ignore Him, we will be ignored as well.
You seem to really get offended, or at least react with surprise, when confronted with the fact that people would choose to leave Christianity
Not really surprised, but I am offended that you claim to have even been Christians in the first place.
I have read many of those stories and find them heartbreaking,
As did I. Those people now have altered concepts about what Christianity is, and will most likely never come to Christ.
How is it that you can ignore the obvious pain and suffering that fundamentalist Christianity has caused (and is causing) and I (an evil atheist) am the compassionate one?
I know that Christianity will cause pain and suffering. Christ said he came to drive mother against daughter, father against son. He brought a sword, not peace.
Your compassion, although a good trait, has nothing to do with anything.
There is life beyond a bad family or childhood without having to resort to extreme religious beliefs.
I think I may have confused you... I didn't come to Christ because of my family. When I was converted, I wasn't thinking about that at all. I was thinking about how I had sinned against the almighty God and deserved punishment. I came because I had a newfound love for the sacrifice Christ made.
This conversion helped me to get through my family, however.
Happiness is ALL that is important in this short life.
Then why should people not steal, murder, rape, or do anything else that is wrong? All of those people who commit those sins do so because it gives them happiness. What reason do they have for not doing it?
you said:
"an atheist I always found it funny that each new pope was thought to be infallible. How dumb is that! One pope could make a ruling (or whatever they call it) and then next could come along and make an opposite ruling, and they both would be absolutely right according to the
Catholic Church. How can contradictory positions both be absolutely correct and infallible?"
Hey alan, sorry to butt in here, but i had the same questions at one time. When the Pope makes a judgement call on abortion, gay marraige, war, ect. it is considered infallible. These statements are usually very well thought out and they are presented before bishops and commitees, and tested against scripture and dogma. For instance, a Pope could not come out and say, "Jesus was NOT the Son of God" this would be heresy and not an infallible statement. In the Catholic Church there is a longstanding history that IS the Catholic Church. That is why there are very few things that are established church dogma that even have varried in interpretation. Once it is in the books, there is pretty much no turning back. That is why the Catholic Church stands in direct opposition to postmodernism. For the record, there has never been a contradictory infallible statement made by popes in the history of the Church. If you do the research, remember, that different Popes have had different moral issues, the Church has never said that Popes were perfect!, just look for infallible statements. In short there are many misconceptions of infiallability so here is what it does not mean:
Infallibility does not mean that a pope is incapable of sin. All popes are human and therefore sinners.
Infallibility does not mean that the pope is inspired. Papal infallibility does not involve any special revelation from God. A pope learns about his faith in the same way that anyone else does--he studies.
Infallibility cannot be used to change existing doctrines or proclaim new ones. It can only be used to confirm or clarify what has always been taught. The teachings of Christ cannot change. As the Scripture says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Hebrews 13:8).
Infallibility does not mean that a pope cannot err when he speaks as a private teacher. As a man he is fallible and capable of error.
Infallibility does not guarantee that a pope will officially teach anything. However, when he does teach he is protected. If he decides to teach the truth, the Holy Spirit allows it. If he decides to teach error, either knowingly or unknowingly, the Holy Spirit will stop him.
Infallibility is not something that endows a pope with divine powers, but rather it is a gift of the Holy Spirit that protects the Church from the human frailties of a pope.
All Christians believe that God used men infallibly in writing Scripture. Why then is it so hard to believe that He would work through men to protect it from corruption? Surely such a protection was implied when Jesus said to His disciples, "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16).
The First Vatican Council taught that three conditions must be met in order for a pronouncement to be considered infallible:
(1) The pope must speak ex cathedra (from the Chair of Peter) in his official capacity.
(2) The decision must be binding on the whole Church.
(3) It must be on a matter of faith or morals.
Hope that clears that up a bit.
Seth
To Darth
Here is a
well organized list of biblical errors and contradictions.
I haven't lost interest in our conversation, I just have a lot of work to do this week so blogging is taking a back seat (temporarily).
Seth
Thanks for the information. You are a wealth of religious knowledge as usual.
hey, i do what i can. just call me the cliff clavin of 'ligion.
Seth
I can deal with about one fourth of those contradictions from memory alone. It'll take a while, but if you want me to, I'll go over them.
I haven't lost interest in our conversation, I just have a lot of work to do this week so blogging is taking a back seat (temporarily).
Don't worry about it. I hardly ever get a chance to get online anyways (My home computer is broken, so I use the library's).
And Seth, thanks from me as well.
Hey Darth
You don't need to answer all the contradictions as that would take several years and more space than this blog could spare. However, does it not make you question taking the Bible literally when there are so many obvious errors that have to be somehow explained away or ignored? Why wouldn't it be crystal clear if it was God's divine word? If the answer is that men wrote the bible and men are not perfect, then isn't that just admitting that there are errors? Why is it so hard for some people to just admit that there are errors in the Bible?
I notice from your blog bio that we actually have a lot in common: The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings - I know who doesn't like Tolkien - D&D when I was younger. But I can't avoid noticing that a lot of what interests you are things that a lot of religious conservatives and fundamentalists preach against. Things such as video games, D&D, Magic The Gathering, Fantasy Literature and comics.
I don't see anything wrong with those things and you obviously don't either, but does this make you question the judgment of those religious people (leaders) who rail against these things? I guess what I am getting at is that you have made a personal judgment based on your own experience regarding these things, yet it seems to me that you are being or have been lead in your hard line religious beliefs.
If you don't mind me asking, how long ago did you get into Jesus so hardcore? Is there one person - a friend or author that you take your cues from? (other than Jesus of course)
Darth
I will get to your responses later this weekend. I have to say, you sound like a pretty off-the-deep-end religious nut, so I am going to be taking the gloves off. I will be nice and civil to a point, but if you invite ridicule, I am more than willing to dish it out. And your responses invite ridicule which I am sure you are aware of. Look up Martyr Complex yourself.
I might also point out that if you are going to make being a fundaMentalist, self-righteous prick a permanent part of your personality, you may want to remove the parts of your web sites where you call people 'dumb ass' make references to '..my ass' and use the word 'fuck'. That pretty much makes you look like a fool and a hypocrite. And by the way, you don't know your bible very well if you can't find the reference to admonishing the naming of someone else as a fool. The passage that you quote in your last reply CONTRADICTS that part of the bible, so thanks to adding to my list of bible contradictions.
The more I talk to you, the more I just want to wish your own miserable little life on you and not try to open your fundie little eyes. You certainly are garnering no sympathy from me with your self-righteous, unoriginal responses.
Why wouldn't it be crystal clear if it was God's divine word?
Because God has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the "wise." That's the reason He used the flood, Jonah and the whale, Christ's resurrection, Adam & Eve, and all the other things that sound ridiculous.
I don't have a bible on me, and the online search one I use isn't working for some reason. I'll try to give you direct quotes from now on, though.
But I can't avoid noticing that a lot of what interests you are things that a lot of religious conservatives and fundamentalists preach against.
That's because many of those things are related to the occult, or other such unpleasant things.
Note that I said 'related' and not 'involved with.' There is a difference.
Most of the people who are against these things are doing it because they see that they came from non-Christian religious origins or something. They're justified in being concerned with it, and I wouldn't condemn them if they stayed away from it. However, like I said, there is a big difference between 'relation' and 'involvement'. If we were to stop everything that is related to evil, then we'd be forced to give up nearly every tradition we have. I've done a little research, and found that American easter and Christmas traditions mostly come from pagan sun-god worship. The easter traditions originally involved sacrificing children and painting eggs with their blood.
Does that mean that we should give up our traditions - which are completely different now - because some other people did something similar that was evil? No.
That's why it's OK to play Magic, D&D, etc. Those things are related, but not involved with, the occult. Some people may even (Though I doubt it is common) get involved in the occult through these things. But that doesn't have anything to do with me.
(I've explained how I feel on this before, if you're wondering why it's so long. XD )
If you don't mind me asking, how long ago did you get into Jesus so hardcore? Is there one person - a friend or author that you take your cues from?
I was converted two years ago. I don't take cues from anything unless it is biblical. I read a lot of Ray Comfort, Charles Spurgeon, R.C. Sproul, Kirk Cameron, C.S. Lewis and probably some more I'm can't think of. I don't necessarily agree with all of them all the time, though.
you may want to remove the parts of your web sites where you call people 'dumb ass' make references to '..my ass' and use the word 'fuck'. That pretty much makes you look like a fool and a hypocrite.
XD
Actually, I was just thinking of doing that. I'm not 100% sure what the bible teaches on foul language, but I've been trying to stop for a long time anyway. Thanks for the reminder!
And by the way, you don't know your bible very well if you can't find the reference to admonishing the naming of someone else as a fool.
I'll be looking it up tonight for you.
The more I talk to you, the more I just want to wish your own miserable little life on you and not try to open your fundie little eyes. You certainly are garnering no sympathy from me with your self-righteous, unoriginal responses.
If you don't want to talk to me, then just say so. Don't worry, you won't hurt my feelings.
God exists because there is a painter for a painting and just as we know by the Newtons third law of physics for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. There is an eternal being that had to create everything even a child can understand that and they do however old bitter people like the ones here that have been possessed by demons try to beat that out of them by greedily hoarding everything lying and forcing. I haven't heard one intelligent claim here yet! You don't have the absolute knowledge period. I know there is a God because he speaks to me and shows me miracles. The reason these people want to be atheist is because they want to do what they want, they simply want to follow the Devil. They won't come face to face with a true believer because they have no factual grounds. Look around at everything that is the proof there is a God! No scientist anywhere has ever disproved God because God exists. Even Einstein believes in God and many other scientists. I have no need to even come back and read any responses because those who deny God are as God says fools and he laughs at them because they don't know that no matter what they do they are serving his Will. All we can do is witness to these faithless creatures and leave it in Gods hands. I do everywhere I go! I live here in Las Vegas and don't cease from witnessing and I have seen miracles wrought all throughout my life. That's it plain and simple these people want to serve the Devil they will get what they deserve and burn in Hell for all eternity unless God has willed that they are saved. -Daniel Allen Palmquist
It is the Will of God that all shall be saved but that doesn't mean that all will be saved recognize the shall means should. God will work through us if we let him that is because we have freewill that is the purpose of the Devils existance to tempt us by thus creating a world that we can make our own decission to follow God or the Devil. Basically do you want to serve Life or Death? Whatever you open yourself up to is what you will get! I am not condoning to sit back and allow things to happen like not preserving the enviroment or something actually I mean the exact opposite and say people should be proactive because that is what sets us believers apart. Atheists give glory to themself for the good things they do and they will NEVER get recognition for it from anyone because no one ever will ever want to give it to them because it belongs to one along and that is the one above us and that one is God! I use to be an atheist didn't believe in God, I use to listen to Marilyn Manson dress in black and everything I was extremely sexually perverse and had very sick fetishes I don't mind sharing with anyone because it is my testament that God is merciful I use to be into rap and went through a gansta stage too I feel I went through it all since I was born April 6th 1982 I grew up in Orange California and moved all around Cali. I hated people for their belief in God I thought was total ignorance but God gave me a revelation and came to me. He showed me the age old word and opened me up to the eternal will and that is something only one has to be open to. I prayed to God after I was broken in my life and had nothing to live for I lost my Job my house and was thrown into Jail for 80 days in Independence California in Inyo county by a Jezzebel named Jenna I will say till the day I die that I was innocent but it all happened for a reason it is all Gods Will even the bad things that have happened all have a purpose in everyones life and the only reason the bad things continue is because mankind chooses to listen and follow the Devil! I got down on my knees and prayed to God, "I know I am not worthy and deserve to burn in Hell forever I pray only in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to save me and change my life God please come into my life!" My life turned around right then and there I walked down the street totally broken at the age of 22 and since then I have gotten a job in computers then electrical construction married my wife Joy and are living in the best area in Las Vegas now. The more I am blessed the more I owe God! I did not give myself to God I simply realized I wasn't mine to give in the first place! God has showed me many miracles. People who have wronged me in the past have been overcome literally by tidal waves in Sri Lanka or hand forklifts drive through their Car of have things fall on them or have a nail go right through their foot. Everything God shows me every day is a testament that he can work any miracle he wishes and that is what people need to understand is order and that God will never contradict himself and he does as he wishes. Learn it now because your eternal destiny depends on your relationship with God. All I can say is REPENT for you disbelief and PRAY PRAY PRAY! If you all here are in your ways desiring things of this world meaning if you feel you need more then food and shelter simply the neccessities of life then you never understand what I could ever tell you. God is coming and he will destroy all sinners forever! AMEN
Daniel Allen Palmquist, are you insane? LOL.
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