True Christians
Could someone explain to me who the real Christians are? I have alternately been informed on this blog that Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are not 'true Christians', that people who use Christianity as a 'front to be hateful' are not 'true Christians', that people who 'water down' the Bible are not true Christians and that people who don't follow the teachings of Christ are not 'true Christians'.
I have news for all of you Christians. NONE of you are 'true Christians'.
None of you follow the teachings of Christ. None of you take the Bible at what it says. All of you 'water down' the Bible. All of you pick and choose the parts of the 'Word of God' that you choose to follow and discard the rest. All of you use Christianity as a 'front' to one degree or another; either to persecute those you fear or do not understand, or to sell music and become 'almost famous', or to support your political views, or to use as an excuse to not have to think and use your own reason.
If Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell aren't 'true Christians', then why are they the most well known and quoted Christians on this planet? Why do they have multi-million dollar empires and entire broadcasting networks? Why do they hold such sway in the Republican Party? Why do they have millions of loyal followers? None of these followers, no Republicans are 'true Christians'? Is George Bush not a 'true Christian'? He certainly does not follow the more famous of Jesus' teachings.
I am more than a little sick from hearing liberal or moderate Christians declare that this or that person is not a 'real Christian'. Maybe it is YOU who is not the 'real Christian'. Perhaps a liberal or moderate caring human being does not belong in the Christian faith. Did you ever consider that? It seems to me that someone who doesn't hate others because of who they are (gay, lesbian, atheists), who doesn't use religion as a political or financial tool to gain power or fame, who realizes that the Bible is full of errors and unbelievable brutality which cannot be condoned or simply ignored; that this person has more in common with atheists than with most Christians.
I will have more to say on this tomorrow.
Tagged as:
religion,christianity,atheist,atheism,Pat Robertson,Jerry Falwell,republicans
18 Comments:
So are you're anti-christian? I was just wondering, considering the passion with which you seem to attack us. Not all of us are insane, you know. The ones who aren't are the ones you don't hear about for that very reason.
matt f,
There goes that with-us-or-against-us attitude so typical of Christians (it started with Jesus, after all). Criticise Christians? You're anti-Christian. Do you consider yourself anti-atheist, then?
Like most atheists, I know that not all Christians are insane, but the question is: if you don't agree that people like Robertson speak for all Christians? Where are the dissenting voices? You resist being lumped in with the insane brand of Christian, but by your silence you allow them to speak for you.
If there were reasonable criticism of Pat Robertson from prominent, sane Christians, I suspect Alan wouldn't have had to post what he did.
Matt f said
The ones who aren't are the ones you don't hear about for that very reason.
Matt, you Christians seem to have me beat when it comes to attacking each other. I can hardly keep up, which was one of the points of my post.
I would love to hear more from reasonable Christians, particularly when it comes to publicly confronting the 'insane' ones. But it would be nice if you (sane Christians) spent more time at the nut-job blogs and less defending Christianity at an atheist blog. Feel free to guide me to any posts you have made at the 'insane' Christian blogs.
m@,
I do not consider myself anti-atheist. I made the remark about Alan being "anti-christian" because most of his posts contrasted atheism directly with Christianity, but that was just my interpretation from reading some of his recent posts in addition to this one. It seemed as if disproving Christianity was the sole point.
I shouldn't have made such a remark without knowing whether the beliefs he disagrees with (i.e. the ones in the ten reasons to be atheist) are exclusive to Christianity or not. So on that note I put my big foot in my big mouth. I apologize and I'd be interested to be linked to posts focusing on religions other than Christianity.
Alan,
I completely agree with yours and m@'s sentiment about where the sane people are. I'm at a loss to this myself. I just pulled up profiles of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, as I had never heard of them before today. I shouldn't judge - but let's just say that if I were ever to meet either of these gentlemen I'd have some harsh words for them. Robertson called Methodists the Antichrist. (me = Methodist) :|
I would appreciate it if you would link me to a few of these blogs. None have come to my attention in my RSS Aggregator, but I skim a lot.
Do you mind if I ask if your parents were religious and if so of what religion/denomination? I'm curious because I have a lot of friends who are atheist who always tell me their parents were/are Catholic, so I always ask that question when I meet someone who is atheist.
Matt,
I live in the southern United States, so Christianity is naturally the target of most of my criticism, although I have posted regarding other religions. Trust me, if I were in the Middle East I would be complaining about Islamic related problems.
I am curious as to where in the world you live considering that you had never heard of Pat or Jerry.
My parents were Southern Baptist. They gradually lost interest in actively participating in organized religion as we (their kids) grew up, although they both remained Christians.
No need to save your harsh words for the actual guys. We (atheists) would love to just hear you complain to their followers.
Alan,
I also live in the southern US. And I get what your saying. "The Bible Belt" as it's called.
In regard to complaining, I will if I find them. I'm not going to call names and such, but I will call them out as far as not following The Word.
I don't support someone who will blatantly attack others who disagree with them. That may be a little bit of pot calling the kettle black, but I try to be respectful at least. Please point it out if I'm ever overly abusive towards atheists. While I am a Christian, I'm also a beliver in the first amendment. :)
The idea of a standard is at once the greatest blessing and the greatest curse for people who are trying to follow the teachings of Jesus. At one point, Jesus told his followers that they needed to be perfect. Don't lie, cheat, or steal. Keep your desires from controlling you. Love your enemies and pray for them. yada yada...
I'm going to ignorantly claim that most Christians would not call bad Christians "not true Christians", what they would say is that they are not very good at following Christ's teachings (whether it's because they don't obey, or because they don't understand). A room full of aspiring actors may have some real poor actors, but they are still actors.
The reason it doesn't make sense to compare atheism directly with Christianity is that one is a set of doctrines and beliefs about the supernatural, while the other one denies the supernatural altogether. Atheists might do better stick to their battles with Theism before going into specifics that develop past theistic belief.
Back online,
Dave
Is anyone else having trouble with the RSS feed from this blog? My aggregator recognizes it but gives me errors whenever I try to read it.
matt f,
No apology needed. I'm perfectly comfortable discussing this civilly and intelligently without worrying about anyone taking things personally. But I appreciate your willingness to keep the discussion on its proper level.
However, it is my experience that when religion comes up in conversation (or indeed in almost any context), it is Christianity. For example, if you meet John Smith and he mentions he is religious, what religion do you assume he is?
I'm interested in your straw poll of atheists though. It isn't my experience -- do you have any ideas why so many atheists were brought up Catholic?
m@,
As to the John Smith example: Probably true, but that can depend on two points. First is where you live and second is whether that person has committed to making disciples as Jesus commanded. Christians are taught to go and spread the gospel. Regrettably, some interpret that as going and saying "believe me or you'll go to hell," but many, like myself, are content with just making sure that people know what they should about Jesus before rejecting Him. It's really in the person's own hands at that point.
I have a few ideas about why Catholicism produced so many atheists, and people who don't take God seriously yet do believe in Him. From what I've heard they're so strict it's like being suffocated. I got the notion that they were judged and treated so harshly by the people at their church that they rejected everything that represents it. Of course, I have nothing to back it up other than one impression, none of them really want to talk about it.
dave,
You're right about most Christians. Southern Baptist can be a wildcard with anything but usually most Christians won't call someone "not a true Christian". That's judgement, which Jesus made clear is a job that's reserved for Him.
Dave,
You said,
I'm going to ignorantly claim that most Christians would not call bad Christians "not true Christians
You had to know I would nail you on this one. I can make the informed statement that I hear 'not true Christian' or 'not real Christian' constantly. I rarely hear 'not following the teachings of Christ'. I also hear 'you (they) were never a real Christian' when believers learn that I was once a Christian or when they learn about other atheists who were once firm believers.
You said,
A room full of aspiring actors may have some real poor actors, but they are still actors.
I can't resist this one. I could not think of a better analogy for most Christians than that of 'actors'! That is what most Christians are doing - acting (in the delivering a performance sense).
Matt,
You said,
I have a few ideas about why Catholicism produced so many atheists, and people who don't take God seriously yet do believe in Him. From what I've heard they're so strict it's like being suffocated.
Someone will correct me if I am wrong here I am sure, but there is only one Catholic Church which has one set of doctrines dictated by the Pope and company. Correct?
Look at Protestants. Hell, if your Baptist sect believes that Paul took the left fork in the road on the way to Damascus instead of the right fork, they will form a new splinter denomination based on that tiny difference in opinion. (This is an exaggeration of course - or is it?)
I would agree that the Catholic Church's big problem is that it is holding to the 'old way' of hierarchical edicts handed down to the ignorant and easily led masses. This may have worked in the twelfth century, but it certainly won't work now.
Most Protestants Churches, on the other hand, feel free to disagree about scripture or interpretation and to form new denominations based on those differences. Perhaps this is a good analogy: Apple Computers can only be purchased from Apple. Apple decides what you are going to get and in what configuration. PC (IBM based) can be built from scratch. Hundreds if not thousands of companies can sell PC based computers.
One thing that I think a Protestant may not realize is that once these disenfranchised Catholics begin to question faith and reach the point of rejecting it outright, they will rarely choose another form of faith to replace their old one. That is my opinion anyway. If you want to get 'em, you better get 'em before they become atheists.
alan, here is my take true christians and non true chistians. is it just those who follow the teachings of Christ? no, if that were the case then none of us would be true Christians because no one could be as good as he. Knowing your background you probably know all this by heart, but there has to be faith mingled into reason. we follow Chirst but what makes one a Christian is that we believe through faith that Jesus was who he said he was and did what he and the apostles said that he did for mankind and creation. this is Christianity in its simplest form. All of Christendom MUST agree on this to be a Christian. From this point on, there have been many disagreements on social issues, (although i think that if most Christians treated people the way the Jesus treated people then there would be WAY less division on these issues). There are even some theological issues that we can dissagre on. Mary, pugatory, transubstantiantion, ect., But not the above mentioned Creed.
Pretty simple, same goes for atheists or any other belief. to be an atheist you must believe that there is no God or not enough evidence to substantiate a God. So If you have never really "confessed this with your mouth and believed in your heart (through faith) then I guess you could say, with some pride on your part im sure, that you were never really a Christian. And yes Christians believe that you can lead bible studies, go on retreats ect. and never really believe in the thing that you are participating. Kind of like when i worked as a telemarketer for MCI in high school. Now, as far as this act of believing goes or having this faith, I am not talking about going down the isle, or a big bang conversion that knocks you over. A belief is a belief whether decide to believe at church or in a starbucks. I dont mean to imply that it is a flippant thing to believe in, it is definitley serious business. If you believe that God became man and died for the sins of mankind, that through his death you are made righteous and have began the journey to the total freedom that we were meant for, you are believing in something that will either start to dramatically and supernaturaly change your life or you are not really believing it all.
more to say but ill try to keep er' short here.
Seth
Alan,
I was wondering if you could spend some time talking about your beliefs regarding atheism. Most of the posts I've found are about religion (although understandably in a negtive light), but I'd be interested to know how you came to your decision.
One thing that confuses me about atheism is that I can't get past the idea that the existance of faith/god/something seems to be necessary in order for atheism to exist. Perhaps that's why most of your posts are about religion rather than atheism? I'm hoping that you can share your thoughts on that and clarify it a bit for me. I hope that doesn't sound argumentative. I don't mean for it to sound as such.
Thanks,
Kat
Seth,
You said,
All of Christendom MUST agree on this to be a Christian.
I don't know if you have read my post about my friend Joe, but it is related to what you are saying here. I also think that there are certain things you must believe to consider yourself a member of a particular religion.
you are believing in something that will either start to dramatically and supernaturaly change your life or you are not really believing it all.
If this is the case, then most people who claim to be Christians that I have met must not be. Very few seem to have transformed lives. They simply change their sleeping habits on Sunday. I agree that a lot of people who claim to be Christians probably never really think about what it is they are supposed to believe. I mean, if you really believe that stuff, it should dramatically change your life.
Kat,
In reply to your request about my deconversion to atheism, I was always pretty skeptical even when I was really young, but I did believe the basic tenants of Christianity.
When I got older, it seemed obvious to me that the Bible was full of errors and a lot of what the fundamentalist pastor of our church preached didn't make any sense. After I quit attending church, I was one of the 'warm fuzzy' sorta-Christians; I wouldn't claim the title of Christian, but I still did believe the Jesus stuff. Later, I would credit Jesus with being a great teacher and having good ideas to live by. During this time, I became very anti-organized religion as I saw all the damage being done in this country and around the world by dogma and superstitious belief, but I really had never forced myself to answer the BIG question.
Only within the last few years did I begin to read more about atheism and Christian criticism. From there, my disbelief followed this route: Jesus was not the son of God; Hell does not exist; Heaven does not exist; God does not exist; Jesus probably did not ever actually exist.
I am about as atheist as you can get. Once I was able to come to terms with the realization that there was no God, disbelieving all the other superstitious and supernatural things (ghosts, spirits, souls etc) was easy.
One thing that confuses me about atheism is that I can't get past the idea that the existence of faith/god/something seems to be necessary in order for atheism to exist.
I think that this is a problem of semantics more than anything. If religion and superstition were not so prevalent and not so firmly enforced and entwined in peoples lives, then the term 'atheist' would probably not ever be used. People who don't believe in Santa aren't put in a position of having to identify them self as Asantist.
It isn't that we are denying the existence of something; it is that this something does not exist. When we atheist compare our belief in 'God' to most peoples belief in Santa, we are not exaggerating. That is really how unbelievable the concept of 'God' is to us.
This is a hard thing for an atheist to explain to believers and I hope I haven't just confused the issue more. I will probably post on this subject of what I don't believe at some point.
Alan,
Actually from what I understand there are different catholic groups that don't adhere exactly with the Roman Catholic Church. Then again, catholosism isn't one of my most knowledeable areas.
Anyway, I would be interested in reading a post about what you don't believe, as well as what you do believe. The absence of faith always leaves some philosophical questions to be answered. I'd be interested in reading your thoughts on the creation of the universe, etc.
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